1 00:00:06,105 --> 00:00:07,385 [crowd cheering] 2 00:00:07,465 --> 00:00:09,185 [announcer in Hindi] Friends, 3 00:00:09,265 --> 00:00:12,745 the chairperson of the world's largest family, 4 00:00:12,825 --> 00:00:17,625 the honorable Saharashri has arrived. 5 00:00:17,705 --> 00:00:18,505 Saharashri! 6 00:00:18,585 --> 00:00:19,825 Long live! 7 00:00:19,905 --> 00:00:26,505 -[announcer] Saharashri! -[crowd] Long live! 8 00:00:26,585 --> 00:00:33,305 -[announcer] Saharashri! -[crowd] Long live! 9 00:00:33,385 --> 00:00:34,705 [announcer] Saharashri! 10 00:00:35,105 --> 00:00:39,505 [in English] Oh, it instils such a great sense of pride in me. 11 00:00:39,585 --> 00:00:42,465 [crowd continues chanting] 12 00:00:42,545 --> 00:00:46,025 We felt like real champions and heroes, 13 00:00:46,105 --> 00:00:48,385 felt really elevated. 14 00:00:48,465 --> 00:00:51,065 We felt so proud of ourselves - 15 00:00:51,145 --> 00:00:52,665 really, really proud. 16 00:00:53,065 --> 00:00:55,505 [in Hindi] We shall sing our beloved anthem 17 00:00:55,585 --> 00:00:59,225 with such fervor and with such dedication, without missing a syllable, 18 00:00:59,305 --> 00:01:04,545 that all Indians shall feel proud and overjoyed. 19 00:01:09,505 --> 00:01:11,545 [in English] His creative consciousness... 20 00:01:12,625 --> 00:01:14,745 is beyond my imagination, 21 00:01:15,265 --> 00:01:20,145 which is why when we call him honorable Saharashri... it is, it's apt. 22 00:01:20,825 --> 00:01:21,945 He deserves that. 23 00:01:22,025 --> 00:01:23,745 [cheering] 24 00:01:23,825 --> 00:01:26,305 But, you know, every human... 25 00:01:27,305 --> 00:01:30,185 every institution, every legend 26 00:01:30,265 --> 00:01:33,385 passes through ups and downs in life. 27 00:01:33,465 --> 00:01:38,385 -[horns honking] -[pulsing music playing] 28 00:01:38,465 --> 00:01:40,505 [indistinct yelling] 29 00:01:40,585 --> 00:01:43,545 My next guest is Sahara boss, Subrata Roy. 30 00:01:44,345 --> 00:01:46,985 One of India's leading business tycoons is in a bit of trouble - 31 00:01:47,065 --> 00:01:48,865 in fact, that's an understatement. 32 00:01:48,945 --> 00:01:50,785 [indistinct shouting] 33 00:01:50,865 --> 00:01:54,585 I challenge the whole world that we have not done anything wrong. 34 00:01:54,665 --> 00:01:56,785 Not a single fraud you can get from us. 35 00:01:56,865 --> 00:01:58,505 [overlapping voices] 36 00:01:58,585 --> 00:02:01,625 {\an8}In this case, Mr. Subrata Roy's company 37 00:02:01,705 --> 00:02:05,785 {\an8}had been systematically circumventing, violating the law. 38 00:02:06,345 --> 00:02:08,185 The money comes from very poor people. 39 00:02:09,385 --> 00:02:12,345 [reporter 1] Look in any of the small towns of the Hindi heartland 40 00:02:12,425 --> 00:02:15,105 and our reporters would find those like Indu 41 00:02:15,665 --> 00:02:18,545 who have trusted Sahara with their meagre earnings. 42 00:02:19,385 --> 00:02:20,505 Where is the money? 43 00:02:21,065 --> 00:02:24,825 {\an8}[man in Hindi] The man's a thief! 44 00:02:24,905 --> 00:02:29,025 [in English] Rumors have even been spread, fabricated and totally baseless. 45 00:02:29,505 --> 00:02:33,385 [reporter 2] At this point of time, the facts seem to be loaded against you. 46 00:02:34,225 --> 00:02:39,585 If they can find out one thing, in the last 32 years, 47 00:02:39,665 --> 00:02:41,585 Sahara has done against the law, 48 00:02:42,385 --> 00:02:43,665 they can hang me. 49 00:02:43,745 --> 00:02:46,145 [music crescendos] 50 00:02:46,225 --> 00:02:48,905 [theme music playing] 51 00:03:26,225 --> 00:03:27,745 [music fades out] 52 00:03:31,745 --> 00:03:33,625 {\an8}The name is ubiquitous, 53 00:03:33,705 --> 00:03:35,105 {\an8}you see it everywhere - 54 00:03:35,185 --> 00:03:37,425 {\an8}in the skies, on satellite TV, 55 00:03:37,505 --> 00:03:39,185 {\an8}in multi-megaprojects, 56 00:03:39,265 --> 00:03:41,665 {\an8}and even on our boys in blue - 57 00:03:41,745 --> 00:03:42,825 {\an8}Sahara. 58 00:03:42,905 --> 00:03:44,905 But who is the man behind it? 59 00:03:44,985 --> 00:03:47,105 Rated amongst the most powerful in the country, 60 00:03:47,185 --> 00:03:48,625 he's also an enigma. 61 00:03:49,145 --> 00:03:52,225 I am delighted to meet Saharashri, Subrata Roy. 62 00:03:52,305 --> 00:03:55,705 Thank you so much for coming. It's my pleasure to have you here. 63 00:03:55,785 --> 00:03:57,865 Thank you for calling. Thank you. 64 00:03:58,585 --> 00:04:01,465 You know, so dizzying has been the speed of your success 65 00:04:01,545 --> 00:04:03,865 that we haven't had time to find out, 66 00:04:03,945 --> 00:04:06,345 who is this man, Subrata Roy? 67 00:04:06,425 --> 00:04:09,065 What kind of a person is he and how did he do it? 68 00:04:09,945 --> 00:04:13,745 Well... I'm a simple human like any other. 69 00:04:14,305 --> 00:04:19,265 [gentle instrumental music playing] 70 00:04:23,025 --> 00:04:26,425 [man] Subrata Roy was always really ambitious. 71 00:04:27,385 --> 00:04:29,145 {\an8}But the story of this man, 72 00:04:29,225 --> 00:04:32,145 {\an8}the son of a lowly civil servant, 73 00:04:32,225 --> 00:04:36,865 {\an8}originates in the middle of nowhere in Gorakhpur in eastern Uttar Pradesh. 74 00:04:37,345 --> 00:04:41,945 It is, economically, the most backward part of India. 75 00:04:48,025 --> 00:04:51,145 {\an8}He started Sahara in 1978, 76 00:04:51,225 --> 00:04:52,785 {\an8}but before he did this, 77 00:04:52,865 --> 00:04:55,705 {\an8}he tried his hand at almost everything else, 78 00:04:55,785 --> 00:04:58,985 {\an8}you know, from selling snacks to selling fans. 79 00:04:59,065 --> 00:05:03,705 {\an8}I mean, he had all these enterprises that he had his fingers into, 80 00:05:03,785 --> 00:05:06,145 {\an8}but he-- most of it failed. 81 00:05:07,385 --> 00:05:08,785 In the early days, 82 00:05:09,665 --> 00:05:11,305 he started schemes 83 00:05:11,385 --> 00:05:14,305 where he would take money from ordinary people. 84 00:05:17,025 --> 00:05:21,065 These people who were underprivileged who didn't hold permanent jobs, 85 00:05:21,865 --> 00:05:24,385 didn't have a permanent address of their own, 86 00:05:24,465 --> 00:05:26,585 and he would promise them a certain return 87 00:05:27,785 --> 00:05:29,625 under various terms and conditions. 88 00:05:30,665 --> 00:05:31,865 They were called "chits". 89 00:05:35,025 --> 00:05:37,225 [Paul] Nineteen seventies, eighties, 90 00:05:37,305 --> 00:05:40,025 that era, there weren't that many banks. 91 00:05:40,585 --> 00:05:42,585 Rural folk had no access. 92 00:05:42,665 --> 00:05:44,265 But they did earn money, you know, 93 00:05:44,345 --> 00:05:46,825 little small sums, and they did want interest. 94 00:05:46,905 --> 00:05:49,625 [motorbike engine puttering] 95 00:05:49,705 --> 00:05:51,545 [Paul] Along came Subrata Roy, 96 00:05:52,385 --> 00:05:53,705 this 30-year-old guy 97 00:05:53,785 --> 00:05:56,905 going on a Lambretta scooter from door to door. 98 00:05:57,625 --> 00:06:01,865 He saw there were thousands and thousands of small depositors. 99 00:06:02,985 --> 00:06:06,505 So, for as little as ten rupees and fifteen rupees, 100 00:06:06,585 --> 00:06:09,985 they were able to invest into these schemes. 101 00:06:10,865 --> 00:06:13,065 Over a period of time, these small depositors 102 00:06:13,145 --> 00:06:16,145 would be getting interest, they would be getting some benefits. 103 00:06:17,105 --> 00:06:22,665 Many of them thought that this was akin to a savings scheme in a bank, 104 00:06:22,745 --> 00:06:25,745 so they could use it when they needed it, uh, 105 00:06:25,825 --> 00:06:29,345 for a wedding in the family, for somebody's illness, or whatever. 106 00:06:31,465 --> 00:06:34,425 I don't think they even read the fine print... 107 00:06:35,665 --> 00:06:38,985 because those who availed of those schemes 108 00:06:39,065 --> 00:06:40,745 were individuals who... 109 00:06:42,145 --> 00:06:43,225 couldn't read. 110 00:06:43,305 --> 00:06:46,545 [motorbike engine puttering] 111 00:06:46,625 --> 00:06:50,505 [woman] Here was this fascinating man who comes out of nowhere, 112 00:06:50,585 --> 00:06:54,065 who embodies the small-town man. 113 00:06:54,145 --> 00:06:59,945 {\an8}He had this remarkable ability to understand exactly what you needed, 114 00:07:00,305 --> 00:07:03,505 {\an8}and he was able to grasp that 115 00:07:03,585 --> 00:07:06,385 {\an8}and to, sort of, pull you in. 116 00:07:06,465 --> 00:07:09,425 [loud crackling] 117 00:07:09,505 --> 00:07:12,385 [Indian instrumental music playing] 118 00:07:12,465 --> 00:07:16,785 [Bamzai] But also, he's a guy who understands India very well. 119 00:07:16,865 --> 00:07:20,025 [indistinct overlapping voices] 120 00:07:20,785 --> 00:07:23,105 [Bamzai] Over the early years for Sahara, 121 00:07:23,185 --> 00:07:26,225 this huge wave of liberalization sweeps India. 122 00:07:26,825 --> 00:07:29,465 The economy was booming, markets were looking up... 123 00:07:30,585 --> 00:07:34,145 Everything just looked as if it was India's moment. 124 00:07:34,225 --> 00:07:38,145 [music continues] 125 00:07:38,225 --> 00:07:42,785 But there were many other people, sort of, left out or marginalized 126 00:07:42,865 --> 00:07:45,465 by this huge wave of liberalization as well. 127 00:07:47,585 --> 00:07:51,345 He understood that point and he was able to give them... 128 00:07:52,065 --> 00:07:53,465 a way to make money. 129 00:07:54,865 --> 00:07:58,825 "Sahara" actually means "savior," so he was their Sahara. 130 00:08:05,585 --> 00:08:08,505 [cars honking] 131 00:08:08,905 --> 00:08:11,305 [man] I've been an independent journalist for a long time. 132 00:08:12,905 --> 00:08:15,145 I followed this story more than 30 years. 133 00:08:15,865 --> 00:08:17,625 Is that an official Sahara document? 134 00:08:19,985 --> 00:08:22,745 {\an8}Initially... he would say, 135 00:08:22,825 --> 00:08:25,465 {\an8}"OK, deposit ten rupees a day, fifteen rupees a day 136 00:08:25,545 --> 00:08:29,065 {\an8}and your money will become two times in three years." 137 00:08:31,025 --> 00:08:36,145 {\an8}[in Hindi] I started by investing twenty rupees a day, 138 00:08:36,865 --> 00:08:39,505 {\an8}and then as my business grew, it kept going up. 139 00:08:39,585 --> 00:08:44,225 So, I started investing 50 rupees, and later, 100 on a daily basis. 140 00:08:44,904 --> 00:08:47,354 The best is that we kept investing small amounts of money. 141 00:08:47,425 --> 00:08:49,625 We got more back, which helped grow the business. 142 00:08:50,665 --> 00:08:53,145 [Pradhan in English] I won't deny that, in the beginning, 143 00:08:53,225 --> 00:08:54,865 people did get their returns. 144 00:08:55,625 --> 00:08:57,065 It was fantastic for them, 145 00:08:57,665 --> 00:08:59,625 which is how he built his credibility. 146 00:09:00,425 --> 00:09:03,225 I got interested in this because one thought, 147 00:09:03,705 --> 00:09:08,185 there has to be something wrong somewhere, there has to be something shady about it. 148 00:09:08,265 --> 00:09:09,665 How can you get so much? 149 00:09:09,745 --> 00:09:12,465 But there used to be huge hoardings all over the place 150 00:09:12,545 --> 00:09:15,585 saying, "OK, this scheme will give you three times money in this much..." 151 00:09:15,665 --> 00:09:17,465 So, it looked very unreal. 152 00:09:18,145 --> 00:09:22,505 {\an8}What prompted a stranger to hand you over his or her life savings? 153 00:09:22,585 --> 00:09:24,905 Many people, they never thought of saving, 154 00:09:24,985 --> 00:09:28,425 so I used to tell them that if you save small, small amount... 155 00:09:28,505 --> 00:09:31,145 Most important thing in friendship is the trust. 156 00:09:58,065 --> 00:10:00,185 {\an8}[in Hindi] I remember when I went to the office 157 00:10:00,265 --> 00:10:04,585 {\an8}to fill out forms to become an agent, the manager told me 158 00:10:04,665 --> 00:10:07,945 {\an8}that... Sahara is a very good company 159 00:10:08,025 --> 00:10:10,465 {\an8}so you don't have to worry about it. 160 00:10:12,185 --> 00:10:14,265 There was no training as such, 161 00:10:14,945 --> 00:10:17,265 but first, you have to become an investor yourself, 162 00:10:17,345 --> 00:10:18,745 and then you can become an agent. 163 00:10:18,825 --> 00:10:20,585 [indistinct chatter] 164 00:10:25,985 --> 00:10:28,265 [woman 1] She became an agent 165 00:10:28,345 --> 00:10:30,745 hoping to get ahead of the life she was born into. 166 00:10:34,665 --> 00:10:37,185 She said, "Mummy, can you find me people to invest?" 167 00:10:37,265 --> 00:10:40,665 {\an8}So, I informed everyone, they all knew Punam as well, 168 00:10:41,385 --> 00:10:45,345 {\an8}so they all agreed and invested. 169 00:10:45,425 --> 00:10:46,665 [indistinct chatter] 170 00:10:46,745 --> 00:10:48,545 I said "Yes, let's all do it. 171 00:10:49,585 --> 00:10:51,145 No reason not to." 172 00:10:52,065 --> 00:10:55,225 [in Marathi] We invested $4 monthly. 173 00:10:55,305 --> 00:10:56,945 [woman 2] I couldn't afford that much. 174 00:10:57,025 --> 00:11:00,825 I couldn't afford that - I'm only a cleaning woman. 175 00:11:01,585 --> 00:11:04,505 You need it for your old age so you can look after yourself. 176 00:11:09,545 --> 00:11:12,145 [Punam in Hindi] I was not on a salary with Sahara, 177 00:11:12,225 --> 00:11:14,425 but I got an agent's commission. 178 00:11:15,585 --> 00:11:18,585 So, it was all about, "get more investors, get more investors." 179 00:11:20,385 --> 00:11:22,545 I tried to convince all the people around me, 180 00:11:22,625 --> 00:11:26,985 like my neighbors, my colleagues, and my relatives. 181 00:11:27,825 --> 00:11:30,745 The people knew me and my parents, 182 00:11:30,825 --> 00:11:32,545 so they were OK... 183 00:11:33,745 --> 00:11:36,145 they had faith in me. 184 00:11:36,225 --> 00:11:38,105 [indistinct chatter] 185 00:11:38,185 --> 00:11:40,265 [Kondu] They invested because they had faith. 186 00:11:42,385 --> 00:11:45,145 It's not like it's a small company, right? 187 00:11:45,745 --> 00:11:47,945 It's like a family. 188 00:11:50,825 --> 00:11:53,745 [Roy in English] It's always nice to be a family community. 189 00:11:54,705 --> 00:11:59,265 That binds you emotionally, that-- that community. 190 00:11:59,345 --> 00:12:01,785 -[woman] Mm-hmm. -It really binds you emotionally. 191 00:12:04,465 --> 00:12:07,865 [Bamzai] For Subrata Roy, the family is a very powerful idea. 192 00:12:08,825 --> 00:12:10,545 And I think he knows, 193 00:12:10,625 --> 00:12:15,025 that really taps into something very deeply Indian. 194 00:12:15,105 --> 00:12:20,105 It taps into our psyche of having someone to look after you. 195 00:12:20,865 --> 00:12:23,185 [man] Sahara India Pariwar... 196 00:12:23,265 --> 00:12:26,065 [Pradhan] He loves to call it "the world's largest family," 197 00:12:26,145 --> 00:12:27,465 Sahara pariwar. 198 00:12:28,305 --> 00:12:30,025 "Pariwar" means "family" in English. 199 00:12:30,945 --> 00:12:32,985 If you look at their advertisements, 200 00:12:33,065 --> 00:12:37,745 even the advertisements would depict the kind of culture that they follow. 201 00:12:38,265 --> 00:12:42,025 That's a very smart way of... [chuckles] doing it, and smart he is. 202 00:12:43,145 --> 00:12:45,385 [Bamzai] His kind of business model, 203 00:12:45,465 --> 00:12:48,145 he calls it "collective materialism." 204 00:12:48,985 --> 00:12:53,585 It's a very clever mix of modernity and tradition. 205 00:12:53,665 --> 00:12:56,505 So it says, "OK, so, you are on your own, 206 00:12:56,585 --> 00:12:59,665 you are a migrant in Lucknow or in Delhi, 207 00:12:59,745 --> 00:13:02,265 you've left your family behind in the village, 208 00:13:02,345 --> 00:13:05,225 but, hey, I'll look after you, I'm your new family." 209 00:13:05,305 --> 00:13:07,625 [pulsing music playing] 210 00:13:07,705 --> 00:13:10,785 He creates wealth for everybody who works with him. 211 00:13:13,305 --> 00:13:15,505 {\an8}Here are people that you wouldn't even look at... 212 00:13:16,585 --> 00:13:18,785 {\an8}the lowest of the low, the people who have nothing. 213 00:13:20,305 --> 00:13:24,305 He's picked up so many lost causes and he would give them a responsibility 214 00:13:24,385 --> 00:13:27,025 and he would see to it that they really grew into that job. 215 00:13:30,105 --> 00:13:31,745 There are various ways of doing business. 216 00:13:31,825 --> 00:13:35,745 His way of doing business is to project a very altruistic approach. 217 00:13:38,225 --> 00:13:39,785 It makes people work harder. 218 00:13:39,865 --> 00:13:41,225 It makes people more loyal. 219 00:13:41,785 --> 00:13:43,265 [indistinct chatter] 220 00:13:43,345 --> 00:13:47,625 [in Hindi] Sahara is doing a great job, so I thank them wholeheartedly. 221 00:13:49,905 --> 00:13:52,945 [in English] He married off a hundred couples at his own expense 222 00:13:53,025 --> 00:13:56,425 and gave them five lakh rupees each or something to start their lives. 223 00:13:56,505 --> 00:14:02,945 [in Hindi] It's a very good thing for us, very emotional as well. 224 00:14:03,025 --> 00:14:06,145 We feel very happy and contented 225 00:14:06,225 --> 00:14:10,345 when 101 unmarried girls get married. 226 00:14:11,305 --> 00:14:13,945 [in English] Here was a person who claims to be Robin Hood 227 00:14:14,025 --> 00:14:16,025 because he's, uh, helping the poor. 228 00:14:17,065 --> 00:14:19,745 He was somebody who was clearly above board. 229 00:14:20,625 --> 00:14:23,945 {\an8}Why would people not invest in his chit fund? 230 00:14:24,025 --> 00:14:25,025 Of course, they would. 231 00:14:25,105 --> 00:14:30,105 [pulsing music playing] 232 00:14:30,185 --> 00:14:34,065 {\an8}Subrata Roy's genius was he understood the value of scale - 233 00:14:34,145 --> 00:14:37,745 {\an8}that if you're taking a couple of rupees, ten rupees here, twenty rupees here 234 00:14:37,825 --> 00:14:40,225 {\an8}from very poor people, it's hard to make money. 235 00:14:40,305 --> 00:14:41,945 But India's an enormous country, 236 00:14:42,025 --> 00:14:43,985 so if you do that with a million people, 237 00:14:44,065 --> 00:14:46,465 with ten million people, with fifty million people, 238 00:14:46,545 --> 00:14:48,985 suddenly, you can take small beginnings 239 00:14:49,065 --> 00:14:51,505 and turn them into a sizeable business empire. 240 00:14:51,585 --> 00:14:56,545 [music continues] 241 00:14:56,625 --> 00:14:59,385 [Crabtree] In the beginning, everything seemed to work wonderfully. 242 00:15:00,105 --> 00:15:01,865 The money that is coming in 243 00:15:01,945 --> 00:15:04,945 is funding the payments that are going out. 244 00:15:06,705 --> 00:15:09,305 But, ultimately, this was a form of pyramid scheme 245 00:15:09,385 --> 00:15:14,185 because the returns on paper that were being given to original investors 246 00:15:14,265 --> 00:15:15,785 were only really being made 247 00:15:15,865 --> 00:15:19,225 because more and more people were being enticed into the system. 248 00:15:20,825 --> 00:15:24,665 And so, Subrata Roy ended up employing hundreds of thousands, 249 00:15:24,745 --> 00:15:27,385 nearly a million agents, all across India, 250 00:15:27,465 --> 00:15:30,025 whose job was to find more and more poor people 251 00:15:30,105 --> 00:15:32,065 and to get them to sign up to this. 252 00:15:32,145 --> 00:15:34,145 [music continues] 253 00:15:34,225 --> 00:15:37,785 And as long as people kept doing that, then the returns kept coming in. 254 00:15:42,425 --> 00:15:43,825 [music fades out] 255 00:15:47,905 --> 00:15:50,585 When I joined this lovely organization, 256 00:15:51,305 --> 00:15:56,105 Sahara was an absolute patriotic organization, 257 00:15:56,665 --> 00:15:58,145 working for the nation - 258 00:15:58,465 --> 00:16:01,745 {\an8}a very Indian company with a lot of Indianness in it. 259 00:16:06,025 --> 00:16:09,865 Whatever I am today in my life is because of this organization 260 00:16:09,945 --> 00:16:11,865 and my good honorable Saharashri. 261 00:16:14,305 --> 00:16:16,705 I was such closely associated with him. 262 00:16:19,825 --> 00:16:25,345 His arrival would, first of all, instill a lot of respect. 263 00:16:29,225 --> 00:16:34,225 The first sentiment or the first chemical secretion, 264 00:16:34,305 --> 00:16:37,025 which would happen up here, 265 00:16:37,105 --> 00:16:38,585 would be of submission. 266 00:16:41,865 --> 00:16:44,105 I have seen people not just touching his feet, 267 00:16:44,185 --> 00:16:48,705 I have seen people lying down on the floor and touching their forehead to his shoes. 268 00:16:50,145 --> 00:16:53,145 {\an8}Subrata Roy definitely suffers from a god complex. 269 00:16:53,225 --> 00:16:55,105 I wouldn't say god, 270 00:16:55,985 --> 00:16:58,785 but what we call in India a "guru". 271 00:17:00,065 --> 00:17:03,305 Guru would be more towards being a master, 272 00:17:03,625 --> 00:17:07,865 where you're taking and receiving and perceiving knowledge from someone 273 00:17:07,945 --> 00:17:10,385 who is by far superior to you. 274 00:17:13,345 --> 00:17:14,865 When I met him first, 275 00:17:15,464 --> 00:17:18,594 uh, it was interesting that he told the photographer 276 00:17:18,665 --> 00:17:21,385 to take a low angle, 277 00:17:21,464 --> 00:17:25,594 so you could see this gigantic figure 278 00:17:26,065 --> 00:17:27,825 under this massive chandelier. 279 00:17:30,625 --> 00:17:34,145 The whole image was of someone who is so powerful 280 00:17:34,225 --> 00:17:37,265 and someone who is clearly above you. 281 00:17:38,945 --> 00:17:41,105 From the earliest days of the business, 282 00:17:41,185 --> 00:17:44,225 Subrata Roy fashioned around himself a personality cult. 283 00:17:44,305 --> 00:17:49,865 He had his staff call him "Saharashri" or the Managing Worker of his company, 284 00:17:49,945 --> 00:17:51,665 he always dressed the same way 285 00:17:51,745 --> 00:17:55,825 in a uniform with white socks and aviator sunglasses. 286 00:17:57,865 --> 00:18:03,545 [Paul] They came up with these traditions which brought in a uniformity of behavior. 287 00:18:04,025 --> 00:18:06,065 {\an8}They devised this whole "Sahara pranam." 288 00:18:06,145 --> 00:18:09,065 {\an8}They'd put their hand on their chest and they'd say "Sahara pranam." 289 00:18:10,585 --> 00:18:14,185 We used to have to say "good Sahara" like that, or "Sahara pranam." 290 00:18:14,265 --> 00:18:16,905 We used to have to touch our chest on the left side. 291 00:18:18,825 --> 00:18:23,145 [Kumar] This binded the entire group under one umbrella, 292 00:18:23,225 --> 00:18:25,705 under the umbrella of family. 293 00:18:28,585 --> 00:18:30,745 It was such a large family. 294 00:18:30,825 --> 00:18:34,505 -[overlapping indistinct voices] -[whistling] 295 00:18:34,585 --> 00:18:36,665 [Bajaj] For many of the Sahara family, 296 00:18:36,745 --> 00:18:39,505 he gave them their first pair of shoes. 297 00:18:41,785 --> 00:18:43,945 They said, and I have seen this myself, 298 00:18:44,025 --> 00:18:45,505 they said that, "Listen... 299 00:18:46,145 --> 00:18:48,345 my daughter got married because I invested in Sahara." 300 00:18:48,425 --> 00:18:51,105 "My son today is an engineer because I invested in Sahara." 301 00:18:51,185 --> 00:18:53,585 "My son is a pilot because I invested in Sahara." 302 00:18:53,665 --> 00:18:55,985 "We trust Sahara completely and totally." 303 00:18:56,545 --> 00:19:00,265 Now, when you have been so transformative 304 00:19:00,345 --> 00:19:01,985 in the lives of people, 305 00:19:02,065 --> 00:19:04,345 they will put their forehead to your toes. 306 00:19:12,305 --> 00:19:14,465 [indistinct chatter] 307 00:19:14,545 --> 00:19:18,985 {\an8}I'm sure Subrata Roy considered himself absolutely invincible. 308 00:19:20,545 --> 00:19:22,425 [in Hindi] Who was your agent? 309 00:19:22,505 --> 00:19:24,145 Here is the agent. 310 00:19:24,225 --> 00:19:25,945 [Pradhan] How much is he owed now? 311 00:19:26,025 --> 00:19:29,865 Four and a half to five thousand dollars. 312 00:19:30,705 --> 00:19:34,265 Sir, it's because the original deposit, in his case, has been reinvested. 313 00:19:35,545 --> 00:19:39,385 [in English] What I have discovered was happening, in the initial few years, 314 00:19:39,465 --> 00:19:42,145 he did return money to the people, 315 00:19:42,225 --> 00:19:46,545 and-- but what he did, what gradually he switched to, 316 00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:49,025 was impressing upon people 317 00:19:49,105 --> 00:19:51,305 not to take back the money, to reinvest it. 318 00:19:53,025 --> 00:19:56,425 [in Hindi] I see, I see. A multi-- A super multiplier. 319 00:19:58,905 --> 00:20:00,545 [in English] When you deposit the money, 320 00:20:00,625 --> 00:20:03,545 you are told that this money will become double in three years. 321 00:20:04,225 --> 00:20:05,465 At the end of three years, 322 00:20:05,545 --> 00:20:08,625 you are told, "We have another scheme which is even more lucrative." 323 00:20:10,065 --> 00:20:14,465 "If you put 10,000 rupees, you will get 30,000 rupees." 324 00:20:15,385 --> 00:20:18,505 For a poor man, it was like a gold mine - 30,000 rupees in three years. 325 00:20:20,225 --> 00:20:22,465 Then, the fellow deposits the money again 326 00:20:22,545 --> 00:20:24,585 and, yet again, when that majority comes, 327 00:20:24,665 --> 00:20:26,985 he's told, "OK, now you put this money in..." 328 00:20:27,065 --> 00:20:28,985 they had some fifteen-year scheme 329 00:20:29,065 --> 00:20:33,465 in which the money was supposed to multiply six and a half times. 330 00:20:37,265 --> 00:20:39,185 Because the returns were so good, 331 00:20:39,705 --> 00:20:42,825 uh, your taxi driver or your roadside stall owner 332 00:20:42,905 --> 00:20:44,505 wouldn't take the money out - 333 00:20:44,585 --> 00:20:46,825 they just let it roll over to the next year. 334 00:20:46,905 --> 00:20:48,505 And so the pot of money 335 00:20:48,585 --> 00:20:51,305 that had been invested by everyone kept growing. 336 00:20:55,545 --> 00:20:57,305 He had been very successful 337 00:20:57,385 --> 00:21:00,505 in raising capital from the poorest people in India, 338 00:21:00,585 --> 00:21:02,065 he had lots of money. 339 00:21:02,145 --> 00:21:03,985 The question was, "What do you do with that?" 340 00:21:04,065 --> 00:21:06,905 [man] Ladies and gentlemen, please fasten your seatbelts, 341 00:21:06,985 --> 00:21:10,505 sit back, and experience Air Sahara. 342 00:21:11,785 --> 00:21:15,345 [Crabtree] He began to use that money to buy up all sorts of other assets. 343 00:21:15,425 --> 00:21:16,665 {\an8}[man] Air Sahara, 344 00:21:16,745 --> 00:21:20,225 {\an8}part of the US $4.08 billion Sahara India Group 345 00:21:20,305 --> 00:21:23,105 {\an8}that has interests in Public Deposit Mobilization. 346 00:21:26,025 --> 00:21:29,545 He became India's largest property owner by some measures. 347 00:21:29,625 --> 00:21:32,305 He began to invest in hotels, both at home and abroad. 348 00:21:32,385 --> 00:21:36,545 {\an8}Indian billionaire Subrata Roy has bought the luxury Plaza Hotel 349 00:21:36,625 --> 00:21:39,865 {\an8}on the iconic Fifth Avenue at Central Park in Manhattan. 350 00:21:39,945 --> 00:21:41,665 {\an8}So, in a sense, he was using the money 351 00:21:41,745 --> 00:21:44,425 that he was raising from some of the poorest people in India 352 00:21:44,505 --> 00:21:47,385 to turn Sahara into a broad-ranging conglomerate 353 00:21:47,465 --> 00:21:50,465 that was focused on the Indian and global middle class. 354 00:21:51,145 --> 00:21:53,305 {\an8}Aamby Valley City is a creative expression 355 00:21:53,385 --> 00:21:56,985 {\an8}of our beloved chief guardian, honorable Saharashri. 356 00:21:57,705 --> 00:21:59,345 Aamby Valley. 357 00:22:01,625 --> 00:22:03,785 It is not a real estate product. 358 00:22:04,425 --> 00:22:08,745 {\an8}It's, of course, a place for people who have actually arrived in life, 359 00:22:08,825 --> 00:22:09,905 {\an8}no doubt about it. 360 00:22:09,985 --> 00:22:11,865 It's a different order of living. 361 00:22:12,745 --> 00:22:14,705 [man] Aamby Valley is a megaproject. 362 00:22:15,345 --> 00:22:18,545 They have facilities out there, uh, that are like no other. 363 00:22:18,945 --> 00:22:22,065 {\an8}You have hotels, you have chalets for sale, 364 00:22:22,465 --> 00:22:24,985 many themed restaurants all over the place. 365 00:22:25,065 --> 00:22:27,265 {\an8}There's one thing that I remember about Aamby Valley 366 00:22:27,345 --> 00:22:28,745 {\an8}which is, in the evenings, 367 00:22:28,825 --> 00:22:31,945 {\an8}there's a sort of dancing fountain, sound and light show. 368 00:22:32,665 --> 00:22:34,505 As the fountains are underway, 369 00:22:35,105 --> 00:22:39,865 we actually see this hologram of the man himself, Subrata Roy. 370 00:22:40,305 --> 00:22:42,265 [Bajaj] He wanted to be the biggest industrialist, 371 00:22:42,345 --> 00:22:43,905 the biggest businessman, 372 00:22:43,985 --> 00:22:46,665 the number one man in India. 373 00:22:47,945 --> 00:22:51,465 I came along to launch a huge television network for him - 374 00:22:51,545 --> 00:22:54,065 the kind of network that India had never seen before. 375 00:22:54,385 --> 00:22:56,505 {\an8}The first thing he said, "You gotta color your hair." 376 00:22:56,585 --> 00:22:59,065 {\an8}I said, "Listen, but I've been appearing on television before 377 00:22:59,145 --> 00:23:00,625 {\an8}and I've got silver-grey hair." 378 00:23:00,705 --> 00:23:03,225 I-- I turned silver-grey as soon as I came out of school. 379 00:23:03,305 --> 00:23:04,745 He said "I don't care... 380 00:23:05,825 --> 00:23:10,185 You have to color your hair black because I color my hair black." 381 00:23:10,265 --> 00:23:14,185 {\an8}[speaking in Hindi] 382 00:23:15,665 --> 00:23:19,185 [in English] Here is this man who also built an entire city 383 00:23:19,265 --> 00:23:21,545 as a tribute to himself in a way. 384 00:23:22,825 --> 00:23:26,825 [Ailawadi] Sahara City is this 360-odd-acre compound. 385 00:23:27,465 --> 00:23:32,145 It houses Subrata Roy himself and a few hundred of his employees. 386 00:23:33,105 --> 00:23:38,305 The building that he lives in is actually the size of the White House, 387 00:23:38,385 --> 00:23:40,225 and it looks very similar as well. 388 00:23:41,065 --> 00:23:44,025 The rest of the compound has a number of facilities - 389 00:23:44,385 --> 00:23:46,385 a helipad, a golf course... 390 00:23:46,785 --> 00:23:50,785 Right through the city, you find all his obsessions in a way, 391 00:23:50,865 --> 00:23:55,705 so he's Walt Disney of this fantasy land he's created. 392 00:23:56,665 --> 00:23:59,585 [Paul] When I was growing up, he was everywhere. 393 00:23:59,665 --> 00:24:03,625 He was the poster boy of everything glam and glitz. 394 00:24:03,945 --> 00:24:05,265 {\an8}[man] Sahara India Pariwar. 395 00:24:07,225 --> 00:24:09,345 {\an8}Cricket in India is sacred. 396 00:24:09,985 --> 00:24:12,425 {\an8}Cricketers are like gods for Indians, 397 00:24:12,505 --> 00:24:17,025 {\an8}and the fact that you have your heroes wearing a Sahara shirt, 398 00:24:17,105 --> 00:24:18,425 {\an8}that's quite a statement to make. 399 00:24:18,505 --> 00:24:21,185 [indistinct chatter] 400 00:24:21,265 --> 00:24:23,065 You see, when glamour is added, 401 00:24:23,625 --> 00:24:27,905 it's a big thing for individuals, for the organization, for the country. 402 00:24:29,425 --> 00:24:31,065 So, that's really good. 403 00:24:33,185 --> 00:24:35,985 [instrumental music playing] 404 00:24:42,025 --> 00:24:44,785 {\an8}[Jamvwal] I'd call him magnetic. 405 00:24:48,265 --> 00:24:50,625 He had the grandest parties, 406 00:24:51,105 --> 00:24:54,105 he surrounded himself with the glamourous and the rich. 407 00:24:54,185 --> 00:24:56,745 [overlapping voices] 408 00:24:57,145 --> 00:25:00,705 All the famous drawing rooms of India welcomed him. Why? 409 00:25:00,785 --> 00:25:02,625 [indistinct chatter] 410 00:25:02,705 --> 00:25:04,945 [Jamvwal] His story appealed to everyone. 411 00:25:07,825 --> 00:25:12,705 It was a story, you know, of this man who just came from nothing... 412 00:25:13,505 --> 00:25:16,785 and, you know, lived a life that everyone dreamt of. 413 00:25:19,105 --> 00:25:21,705 [Bamzai] It was very important for him to build this whole image 414 00:25:21,785 --> 00:25:25,025 of being someone who's on first-name terms 415 00:25:25,105 --> 00:25:27,145 with the most powerful people in India. 416 00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:30,985 [Jamvwal] Amitabh Bachchan... 417 00:25:31,945 --> 00:25:35,865 he is the greatest and the most long-lasting actor in India. 418 00:25:37,025 --> 00:25:39,265 The guy has become one of his best friends. 419 00:25:41,265 --> 00:25:44,545 So, if you remember the 2004 wedding, 420 00:25:45,385 --> 00:25:47,625 there was a wedding of his two sons. 421 00:25:50,265 --> 00:25:52,825 He had the prime minister of that time, 422 00:25:52,905 --> 00:25:55,505 he had the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh... 423 00:25:56,585 --> 00:25:59,705 he had some of India's biggest superstars... 424 00:26:00,905 --> 00:26:04,505 beginning with the biggest superstar, Amitabh Bachchan. 425 00:26:06,065 --> 00:26:09,185 Ten thousand people were at that wedding in Lucknow. 426 00:26:09,945 --> 00:26:11,105 [Bajaj] I was there. 427 00:26:11,505 --> 00:26:13,265 Nothing like it had ever been seen, 428 00:26:14,065 --> 00:26:16,625 and India is a land of grand weddings. 429 00:26:16,705 --> 00:26:20,585 There has never been anything so extravagant... 430 00:26:21,625 --> 00:26:24,065 as the Sahara wedding... ever. 431 00:26:28,545 --> 00:26:30,625 It was mind-boggling. 432 00:26:32,145 --> 00:26:33,665 But I think that's what... 433 00:26:34,705 --> 00:26:36,545 put up the backs of a lot of people. 434 00:26:37,625 --> 00:26:38,785 It was too lavish. 435 00:26:39,505 --> 00:26:40,465 It was grandiose. 436 00:26:41,505 --> 00:26:44,185 [musicians playing instruments] 437 00:26:44,265 --> 00:26:46,425 Some people did wonder... 438 00:26:47,385 --> 00:26:50,865 "How did he get this amount of money?" 439 00:26:50,945 --> 00:26:53,185 [drums playing] 440 00:26:53,265 --> 00:26:56,905 [Bajaj] Did we wonder, "How is it that all these things are being financed?" 441 00:26:57,625 --> 00:27:00,665 We knew how they were being financed. I mean, there's no secret to it. 442 00:27:00,745 --> 00:27:01,825 It was the chit fund. 443 00:27:02,745 --> 00:27:04,665 What always irked me most 444 00:27:04,745 --> 00:27:09,145 was that he was thriving on the money and savings 445 00:27:09,545 --> 00:27:11,225 of extremely poor people. 446 00:27:11,785 --> 00:27:12,985 It was their money. 447 00:27:13,625 --> 00:27:14,825 In terms of what was wrong, 448 00:27:14,905 --> 00:27:16,905 you could talk about what was ethically wrong, 449 00:27:16,985 --> 00:27:19,265 but, uh... but legally, at that point, 450 00:27:19,345 --> 00:27:22,625 there wasn't any particular violation that was brought to light. 451 00:27:22,705 --> 00:27:24,145 [drums continue] 452 00:27:24,225 --> 00:27:27,385 [Ailawadi] As Sahara wasn't a public company or a listed company, right? 453 00:27:27,465 --> 00:27:29,905 So, if you were a listed company, 454 00:27:29,985 --> 00:27:33,465 you would come under the purview of the regulator, the official regulator. 455 00:27:35,305 --> 00:27:37,145 When you reach their heights, 456 00:27:37,465 --> 00:27:40,545 yes, you can bend a few rules and get away with it a lot 457 00:27:40,625 --> 00:27:43,585 because you're up there and you're one of the powers that be. 458 00:27:43,985 --> 00:27:46,465 But you have got to hold it together 459 00:27:46,545 --> 00:27:50,625 because the moment you feel that you're unimpregnable, 460 00:27:50,705 --> 00:27:52,545 that nothing touches you, 461 00:27:52,625 --> 00:27:57,665 that your burnished armor can't have any chinks... 462 00:27:59,145 --> 00:28:00,985 I mean, that's the beginning of the end. 463 00:28:05,305 --> 00:28:06,785 [indistinct chatter] 464 00:28:08,305 --> 00:28:12,385 [Pradhan] During that period, not a single newspaper in the country 465 00:28:12,465 --> 00:28:14,225 would write a word against him 466 00:28:14,305 --> 00:28:19,185 because he would flood that media house with his own advertisements. 467 00:28:19,585 --> 00:28:21,505 {\an8}It was not easy to expose him 468 00:28:21,585 --> 00:28:24,905 {\an8}because of the, kind of, uh, the net that he had spread, 469 00:28:25,425 --> 00:28:28,665 {\an8}the clutches that he had over the media barons. 470 00:28:28,745 --> 00:28:30,945 I would get agitated by this, 471 00:28:31,345 --> 00:28:33,145 and the agitation would grow more [chuckling] 472 00:28:33,225 --> 00:28:36,105 when you realize that your story would not be carried in the paper. 473 00:28:37,705 --> 00:28:42,785 But, at that point of time, I discovered that a modus operandi was adopted. 474 00:28:44,705 --> 00:28:47,785 [indistinct chatter] 475 00:28:47,865 --> 00:28:52,465 There were cases where in remote, remote places 476 00:28:52,545 --> 00:28:55,785 the agent would stop knocking at your door and you would be told, 477 00:28:55,865 --> 00:29:00,025 "OK, now, henceforth, the depositor will have to make his daily deposit 478 00:29:00,105 --> 00:29:02,225 at the nearest Sahara office," 479 00:29:02,745 --> 00:29:05,225 which, invariably, would be at some distance. 480 00:29:05,625 --> 00:29:07,425 -[in Hindi] The office at Barabanki? -Yes. 481 00:29:07,505 --> 00:29:09,105 -[Pradhan] The district office? -Yes. 482 00:29:09,185 --> 00:29:11,865 The journey will take him the entire day. 483 00:29:13,745 --> 00:29:17,905 [in English] Now, as a daily wage earner, you know, they are such poor people... 484 00:29:17,985 --> 00:29:18,945 [indistinct chatter] 485 00:29:19,025 --> 00:29:21,385 [Pradhan] ...it is practically not possible 486 00:29:21,465 --> 00:29:25,265 to be so religiously ensuring that ten-rupees deposit every day. 487 00:29:25,825 --> 00:29:28,665 And then, when people would miss payments, 488 00:29:28,745 --> 00:29:33,025 and a number of defaults were committed on account of missing the payment, 489 00:29:33,825 --> 00:29:35,705 he would receive a letter. 490 00:29:36,305 --> 00:29:39,185 "Look here, you've made so many defaults and if you make more, 491 00:29:39,265 --> 00:29:40,785 your money will be forfeited..." 492 00:29:42,145 --> 00:29:44,505 which is precisely what happened to people. 493 00:29:47,265 --> 00:29:49,385 But, of course, people started thinking, 494 00:29:49,465 --> 00:29:51,425 "this is shady, there's something wrong," 495 00:29:51,825 --> 00:29:54,065 and that is what started dissuading depositors. 496 00:29:55,545 --> 00:29:57,745 For Sahara, this was a huge problem. 497 00:29:58,665 --> 00:30:00,545 These kinds of schemes succeed 498 00:30:00,625 --> 00:30:04,345 only as long as you have more and more people rolling in. 499 00:30:06,225 --> 00:30:08,025 As awareness grew, 500 00:30:08,105 --> 00:30:11,985 and as experience started telling people that this money's not safe, 501 00:30:12,065 --> 00:30:13,705 the numbers started depleting, 502 00:30:13,785 --> 00:30:15,865 and as the numbers started depleting, 503 00:30:15,945 --> 00:30:18,545 he had started facing a crisis. 504 00:30:20,745 --> 00:30:22,425 Hello and welcome to Walk the Talk. 505 00:30:22,505 --> 00:30:24,585 {\an8}I'm Shekhar Gupta and my guest this week, 506 00:30:24,665 --> 00:30:27,225 {\an8}somebody who tries very hard to stay out of headlines, 507 00:30:27,305 --> 00:30:29,345 {\an8}but there are millions of rumors about him. 508 00:30:29,745 --> 00:30:31,745 {\an8}The real Mr. Subrata Roy, Saharashri. 509 00:30:31,825 --> 00:30:33,545 {\an8}-Welcome to Walk the Talk. -Thank you. 510 00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:36,505 {\an8}-How many depositors do you have now? -Six crores plus. 511 00:30:39,225 --> 00:30:40,465 {\an8}That means almost... 512 00:30:41,585 --> 00:30:43,425 {\an8}one in 20, one in 15-- 513 00:30:43,505 --> 00:30:45,825 {\an8}-One in 17. -One in 17 Indians. 514 00:30:45,905 --> 00:30:47,425 {\an8}Many of whom are very poor people. 515 00:30:47,505 --> 00:30:49,465 {\an8}You feel a special sense of responsibility? 516 00:30:49,545 --> 00:30:50,705 {\an8}Very much. 517 00:30:50,785 --> 00:30:53,545 {\an8}That is the first responsibility I have. 518 00:30:54,305 --> 00:30:56,345 {\an8}[Crabtree] In the middle of the 2000s, 519 00:30:56,425 --> 00:30:58,745 {\an8}you began to get stories of people 520 00:30:58,825 --> 00:31:01,465 {\an8}who tried to get their money out and couldn't get it. 521 00:31:03,065 --> 00:31:04,505 {\an8}In a normal pyramid scheme, 522 00:31:04,585 --> 00:31:07,825 {\an8}often these things collapse overnight and it wasn't like that with Sahara. 523 00:31:08,305 --> 00:31:13,225 {\an8}His problems actually started when he tried to take his companies public. 524 00:31:13,305 --> 00:31:14,825 {\an8}When are you planning to go public? 525 00:31:14,905 --> 00:31:16,185 {\an8}Because one thing about Sahara, 526 00:31:16,265 --> 00:31:19,065 {\an8}one thing that adds to the mystery around Sahara, or mystique, 527 00:31:19,145 --> 00:31:21,425 {\an8}is that very little is known in public domain. 528 00:31:21,505 --> 00:31:25,425 {\an8}So, if Sahara goes public, or one of your companies goes public, 529 00:31:25,505 --> 00:31:27,025 {\an8}it will be big news. 530 00:31:27,105 --> 00:31:29,625 {\an8}When does the first one go public? Which one goes public? 531 00:31:29,705 --> 00:31:31,145 {\an8}I think, from now, 532 00:31:31,225 --> 00:31:33,825 {\an8}within six to eight months we will definitely go public. 533 00:31:34,385 --> 00:31:36,985 {\an8}-Which company will go first? -Housing and Infrastructure. 534 00:31:44,185 --> 00:31:45,785 [Ailawadi] It's a massive change. 535 00:31:45,865 --> 00:31:49,625 {\an8}All of his companies until this point... were private. 536 00:31:50,265 --> 00:31:53,985 {\an8}Now, obviously, when he decided to go public with two of them, 537 00:31:54,065 --> 00:31:55,745 {\an8}he wanted to raise fresh funds. 538 00:31:55,825 --> 00:31:56,745 {\an8}[inaudible] 539 00:31:56,825 --> 00:31:59,985 {\an8}-You now intend to list your businesses? -Yes, we will do this. 540 00:32:00,065 --> 00:32:01,905 {\an8}And you're doing this to unlock value 541 00:32:01,985 --> 00:32:06,025 {\an8}or you're doing this also to-- to counter this mystery? 542 00:32:06,105 --> 00:32:07,585 {\an8}-The aura-- -[chuckles] Both. 543 00:32:07,665 --> 00:32:09,145 {\an8}[inaudible] 544 00:32:09,225 --> 00:32:11,545 {\an8}Now, when you do go public, 545 00:32:11,625 --> 00:32:14,385 you would have to reveal a certain number of things, 546 00:32:14,465 --> 00:32:15,905 make disclosures, 547 00:32:15,985 --> 00:32:18,665 um, obviously, talk about where you are raising the funds from, 548 00:32:18,745 --> 00:32:21,025 what you're going to do with those proceeds. 549 00:32:21,585 --> 00:32:23,465 You have submit audited accounts as well, 550 00:32:23,545 --> 00:32:26,945 so it's at this point that people started asking questions. 551 00:32:28,225 --> 00:32:31,585 {\an8}Mr. Subrata Roy was always, sort of, one step ahead 552 00:32:31,665 --> 00:32:36,225 {\an8}in the early days of his, uh, career as a businessperson 553 00:32:36,305 --> 00:32:38,385 {\an8}in being able to, you know, sort of, 554 00:32:38,465 --> 00:32:41,785 {\an8}devise schemes which would be on the right side of the law. 555 00:32:43,625 --> 00:32:45,705 And, he was able to do all this 556 00:32:45,785 --> 00:32:51,025 until he finally ran foul of certain officers 557 00:32:51,105 --> 00:32:53,865 in India's regulator of the financial markets, 558 00:32:54,265 --> 00:32:56,705 SEBI, or the Securities and Exchange Board of India. 559 00:33:02,705 --> 00:33:06,225 -[indistinct shouting] -[car honking] 560 00:33:07,345 --> 00:33:11,145 [overlapping voices shouting] 561 00:33:11,225 --> 00:33:14,625 [reporter] Sahara boss Subrata Roy who's in a bit of trouble - 562 00:33:14,705 --> 00:33:18,065 in fact, that's an understatement - one of India's leading business tycoons, 563 00:33:18,145 --> 00:33:20,385 he has juggled all kinds of various ventures, 564 00:33:20,465 --> 00:33:25,625 but today, uh, he has faced some very uncomfortable questions 565 00:33:25,705 --> 00:33:27,545 {\an8}from market regulator SEBI. 566 00:33:29,025 --> 00:33:32,065 {\an8}And so, India's financial regulators began to look 567 00:33:32,145 --> 00:33:35,225 {\an8}at the structures that he was using and say, 568 00:33:35,305 --> 00:33:37,665 "Well, this doesn't look exactly right. 569 00:33:37,745 --> 00:33:42,785 Um, it appears that he's not being transparent about who his investors are 570 00:33:42,865 --> 00:33:46,065 or the rules under which they are allowed to get their money back." 571 00:33:46,785 --> 00:33:50,065 Sahara claims SEBI has no business summoning their chief. 572 00:33:50,545 --> 00:33:52,505 [Crabtree] And so, beginning in the mid-2000s, 573 00:33:52,585 --> 00:33:56,545 there was an ongoing battle between Sahara and India's regulators 574 00:33:56,625 --> 00:34:01,385 as they tried to figure out exactly what the monster was that he had created. 575 00:34:01,465 --> 00:34:04,345 [overlapping voices shouting] 576 00:34:04,425 --> 00:34:06,945 [reporter 1 in Hindi] Sir, what questions did SEBI ask of you? 577 00:34:07,025 --> 00:34:08,745 [Roy] They asked us about our assets. 578 00:34:08,825 --> 00:34:11,905 {\an8}I had hoped we would be at least offered a cup of tea. 579 00:34:11,985 --> 00:34:13,545 {\an8}We didn't even get that. Thank you. 580 00:34:14,065 --> 00:34:17,225 {\an8}[reporter 2] SEBI's accusation is that companies of the Sahara Group 581 00:34:17,304 --> 00:34:20,634 {\an8}have raised $3.5 billion from investors illegally. 582 00:34:21,824 --> 00:34:24,474 [in English] It was only when the SEBI came into the picture 583 00:34:24,545 --> 00:34:27,505 that the media started writing things about him. 584 00:34:27,585 --> 00:34:29,145 {\an8}Senior journalist Sharat Pradhan, 585 00:34:29,225 --> 00:34:31,225 {\an8}who knows the story like the back of his hand, 586 00:34:31,304 --> 00:34:32,744 {\an8}joins us tonight from Lucknow. 587 00:34:32,824 --> 00:34:34,434 {\an8}Sharat, I want to go to you first. 588 00:34:34,505 --> 00:34:36,775 {\an8}[Pradhan] I felt very elated, you know, very happy. 589 00:34:36,865 --> 00:34:39,905 {\an8}And then, of course, whenever one got the opportunity, 590 00:34:39,985 --> 00:34:42,225 {\an8}they made it a point to speak out. 591 00:34:42,304 --> 00:34:45,784 {\an8}Almost all of his money comes from very, very poor people, 592 00:34:45,865 --> 00:34:50,225 {\an8}who do not have the courage or the means or the ability 593 00:34:50,304 --> 00:34:52,234 {\an8}to question where their money has gone. 594 00:34:53,065 --> 00:34:55,105 {\an8}[Thakurta] If you go through the records 595 00:34:55,185 --> 00:34:57,295 {\an8}of the Securities and Exchange Board of India, 596 00:34:57,385 --> 00:35:00,775 {\an8}you'll find there's a long list of allegations against him. 597 00:35:02,305 --> 00:35:06,425 He fought the battle all the way up the legal ladder 598 00:35:06,905 --> 00:35:08,585 to the Supreme Court of India. 599 00:35:13,545 --> 00:35:17,105 It so happened that I just got a call from a lawyer in Delhi 600 00:35:17,185 --> 00:35:20,705 who was the lawyer for the Securities and Exchange Board of India. 601 00:35:21,625 --> 00:35:26,425 {\an8}And he asked me whether I could appear against the Sahara group of companies 602 00:35:26,505 --> 00:35:28,545 {\an8}and would there be any conflict of interest. 603 00:35:28,625 --> 00:35:29,545 {\an8}And I said, "none." 604 00:35:30,185 --> 00:35:31,865 I took it as a very big challenge 605 00:35:31,945 --> 00:35:34,705 as I was going to appear against most of the leading lawyers in India, 606 00:35:34,785 --> 00:35:37,145 the best of the best in the Indian bar. 607 00:35:38,545 --> 00:35:43,345 I can claim challenge to the whole world that we have not done anything wrong, 608 00:35:43,425 --> 00:35:45,785 not a single fault you can get from us. 609 00:35:45,865 --> 00:35:47,345 I can challenge that. 610 00:35:47,425 --> 00:35:50,865 And I'm challenging it-- uh, publicly, I'm challenging it. 611 00:35:55,945 --> 00:35:59,065 [Datar] The law in India is that if you collect monies from the public, 612 00:35:59,145 --> 00:36:03,265 you have to be very sure that you comply with the stock market regulations. 613 00:36:03,345 --> 00:36:06,745 You don't take money from the public and not comply with the law. 614 00:36:07,465 --> 00:36:10,185 Sahara collected huge amounts of money from investors. 615 00:36:10,745 --> 00:36:12,065 So, we asked, 616 00:36:12,145 --> 00:36:16,265 "Please, explain to us why you are not coming under the jurisdiction 617 00:36:16,345 --> 00:36:19,225 or the control of the stock market regulator." 618 00:36:20,465 --> 00:36:24,905 He said that, "What I am doing is not technically a public issue. 619 00:36:25,505 --> 00:36:26,585 Sahara investors are people 620 00:36:26,665 --> 00:36:29,625 who are part of the Sahara family, Sahara Group, 621 00:36:30,465 --> 00:36:34,065 so it is a private matter - it is not involving the public." 622 00:36:34,705 --> 00:36:39,145 But the point is, there were approximately thirty million investors. 623 00:36:40,385 --> 00:36:42,985 It was staggeringly large... 624 00:36:43,945 --> 00:36:46,465 for so many investors in one particular company, 625 00:36:47,105 --> 00:36:49,385 and that was a major bone of contention. 626 00:36:49,945 --> 00:36:52,185 It would be, uh, paradoxical to say 627 00:36:52,265 --> 00:36:56,225 that you're going to collect money from thirty million people, 628 00:36:56,305 --> 00:36:59,665 perhaps the largest public issue in Indian history, 629 00:36:59,745 --> 00:37:03,265 and say, "No, the public is not involved - it's just a group of private people." 630 00:37:03,825 --> 00:37:08,825 [indistinct yelling] 631 00:37:08,905 --> 00:37:11,025 {\an8}In this case, everyone-- 632 00:37:11,105 --> 00:37:14,265 {\an8}the common perception is that Mr. Subrata Roy's company 633 00:37:14,345 --> 00:37:18,225 {\an8}had been systematically circumventing, violating the law. 634 00:37:19,025 --> 00:37:21,025 He is some kind of a megalomaniac. 635 00:37:21,105 --> 00:37:22,745 [indistinct chatter] 636 00:37:22,825 --> 00:37:24,385 [Roy] Listen, I promise, 637 00:37:24,465 --> 00:37:27,465 when I come out, when I come back out, 638 00:37:27,545 --> 00:37:29,465 I'll talk to everyone then. 639 00:37:29,545 --> 00:37:30,985 [indistinct shouting] 640 00:37:31,065 --> 00:37:34,065 [Pradhan] He was claiming, this was a matter for the Sahara company 641 00:37:34,145 --> 00:37:35,585 and not the regulators. 642 00:37:35,665 --> 00:37:38,505 It was a very insolent kind of behavior on his part. 643 00:37:39,465 --> 00:37:41,425 "You cannot do anything against me." 644 00:37:41,705 --> 00:37:43,425 The Supreme Court issued him warnings. 645 00:37:43,505 --> 00:37:47,385 "Look here, we are not sitting here to hear all this nonsense from you." 646 00:37:47,985 --> 00:37:50,705 But, here is a guy who managed to fool everybody, 647 00:37:51,265 --> 00:37:52,545 for a long, long time. 648 00:37:54,225 --> 00:37:55,825 So, the next thing that happened, 649 00:37:55,905 --> 00:37:58,905 I'm sure Subrata Roy never thought that this could happen 650 00:37:58,985 --> 00:38:02,425 because he was-- considered himself absolutely invincible. 651 00:38:02,665 --> 00:38:04,545 {\an8}[banging] 652 00:38:04,625 --> 00:38:08,385 {\an8}The order came on the 31st August of 2012. 653 00:38:08,465 --> 00:38:11,665 {\an8}[dramatic music playing] 654 00:38:11,745 --> 00:38:14,545 {\an8}The Supreme Court held that it is a public issue 655 00:38:14,625 --> 00:38:17,785 {\an8}and since you have not followed the legal requirements, 656 00:38:18,505 --> 00:38:22,385 {\an8}they directed Sahara to refund the entire money collected to the public... 657 00:38:22,465 --> 00:38:24,105 [overlapping voices shouting] 658 00:38:24,185 --> 00:38:27,425 [Datar] ...approximately 250, 260 billion rupees. 659 00:38:27,985 --> 00:38:30,705 {\an8}The original investment plus 15 percent interest - 660 00:38:30,785 --> 00:38:32,745 {\an8}$3.6 billion dollars. 661 00:38:32,825 --> 00:38:36,185 This was the largest ever financial penalty 662 00:38:36,265 --> 00:38:38,025 that had ever been recorded in India. 663 00:38:38,105 --> 00:38:41,705 I was really very happy that, at long last, 664 00:38:41,785 --> 00:38:45,305 this man has got what he deserved long ago. 665 00:38:45,905 --> 00:38:48,785 And hats off, salute the Supreme Court. 666 00:38:48,865 --> 00:38:50,305 [music fades out] 667 00:39:04,345 --> 00:39:07,225 [Kondu in Hindi] When that all happened, it got reported on. 668 00:39:08,225 --> 00:39:10,345 It was on TV and it was in the papers. 669 00:39:11,105 --> 00:39:13,545 {\an8}Then it becomes a little scary. 670 00:39:13,625 --> 00:39:15,065 [indistinct chatter] 671 00:39:15,145 --> 00:39:16,505 [Kondu] You get worried. 672 00:39:17,025 --> 00:39:23,665 [indistinct overlapping chatter] 673 00:39:23,745 --> 00:39:25,345 I reassured people... 674 00:39:26,065 --> 00:39:27,905 told them not to worry. 675 00:39:29,625 --> 00:39:33,225 [Punam] At that time, I read that SEBI had given instructions 676 00:39:33,305 --> 00:39:35,345 to refund the investors' money. 677 00:39:36,185 --> 00:39:40,865 But, by the time SEBI became aware, it was too late. 678 00:39:42,025 --> 00:39:47,665 {\an8}Sahara had been calling up their agents like me, 679 00:39:47,745 --> 00:39:53,065 telling us to ask our investors to reinvest their money 680 00:39:53,145 --> 00:39:56,305 because there are problems with the existing accounts. 681 00:39:56,385 --> 00:39:58,745 So, it was better to deposit it into another account 682 00:39:58,825 --> 00:40:00,385 and earn good interest on it. 683 00:40:04,745 --> 00:40:08,025 [reporter in English] Surindra Sinha, who subscribed to one of the schemes 684 00:40:08,105 --> 00:40:10,065 now banned by SEBI, 685 00:40:10,145 --> 00:40:12,265 he says he has not been refunded 686 00:40:12,345 --> 00:40:15,745 but made to switch to a new scheme called "Q Shop". 687 00:40:16,585 --> 00:40:18,985 [in Hindi] My feeling is... 688 00:40:19,945 --> 00:40:23,625 it was done knowingly as a scam 689 00:40:23,705 --> 00:40:27,665 because they wanted to withhold the money from the investors... 690 00:40:29,585 --> 00:40:32,745 and that's how Sahara tried to show in their books to the government 691 00:40:32,825 --> 00:40:35,065 that they had already given investors their money 692 00:40:35,145 --> 00:40:37,785 when, in fact, they shifted the money to different accounts. 693 00:40:38,105 --> 00:40:43,305 [in English] We have nothing to repay because repayment was done, made 694 00:40:43,385 --> 00:40:46,185 before the judgement came, 695 00:40:46,265 --> 00:40:47,825 before that, it was ours. 696 00:40:47,905 --> 00:40:51,145 They said that Mr. X, Mr. Y, and Mr. Z had been refunded 697 00:40:51,225 --> 00:40:53,145 and we've got documents to prove that. 698 00:40:53,865 --> 00:40:56,625 They didn't say cash or check order initially, 699 00:40:56,705 --> 00:40:58,505 just that they had repaid the money. 700 00:40:58,905 --> 00:41:02,425 Some say, they have been merely moved from one scheme to another. 701 00:41:03,025 --> 00:41:08,265 Eventually, the story came that, "Look, we refunded the money in cash." 702 00:41:08,985 --> 00:41:10,585 [reporter] Not long after the order, 703 00:41:10,665 --> 00:41:14,745 Sahara made a startling claim that they had repaid almost all the money, 704 00:41:14,825 --> 00:41:16,225 {\an8}20,000 crores, 705 00:41:16,305 --> 00:41:19,185 {\an8}back to the investors in just a few months, 706 00:41:19,585 --> 00:41:22,505 eliciting this remark from the SEBI chief. 707 00:41:22,585 --> 00:41:24,625 A particular company has claimed 708 00:41:25,305 --> 00:41:29,825 that it has refunded more than 20,000 crores... 709 00:41:31,305 --> 00:41:34,825 to so-called investors, out of which, 710 00:41:34,905 --> 00:41:37,625 more than 90% has been returned in cash. 711 00:41:39,705 --> 00:41:41,865 I would like all of you to ponder and think 712 00:41:42,345 --> 00:41:45,185 how feasible, how credible this story can be. 713 00:41:45,825 --> 00:41:46,945 Go ahead. 714 00:41:47,025 --> 00:41:50,185 Go for the investigation, go for inspection, go for checks. 715 00:41:50,705 --> 00:41:52,025 We are open book. 716 00:41:53,865 --> 00:41:57,145 And, uh, so, we said, "Show me the money. How did you refund the money?" 717 00:42:00,025 --> 00:42:04,705 When the market regulator demanded proof, 718 00:42:05,545 --> 00:42:09,505 he put documents into thousands of boxes, 719 00:42:09,585 --> 00:42:11,705 packed them into trucks, 720 00:42:11,785 --> 00:42:16,145 and had them come all the way into the headquarters 721 00:42:16,745 --> 00:42:19,545 of the Securities and Exchange Board of India in Mumbai. 722 00:42:22,265 --> 00:42:26,025 Here you are at loggerheads with the government regulator, 723 00:42:26,625 --> 00:42:29,425 you're being pushed from all sides, 724 00:42:29,505 --> 00:42:34,185 and you show your bravado by sending 127 trucks, 725 00:42:34,665 --> 00:42:36,425 coming in the middle of the night, 726 00:42:36,985 --> 00:42:39,945 with 31,000 trunks of documents. 727 00:42:41,665 --> 00:42:43,945 [Thakurta] He knew full well 728 00:42:44,025 --> 00:42:45,865 that it would take the regulator 729 00:42:46,625 --> 00:42:50,265 many months to scrutinize those documents 730 00:42:50,345 --> 00:42:53,305 and establish their authenticity. 731 00:42:55,385 --> 00:43:00,265 And I do believe that it was an indirect way 732 00:43:00,945 --> 00:43:05,545 of intimidating the market regulator. 733 00:43:07,185 --> 00:43:10,065 [reporter 1] Sahara says the proof is in the five crore documents, 734 00:43:10,145 --> 00:43:13,745 sent in 127 trucks to SEBI headquarters. 735 00:43:14,425 --> 00:43:17,905 SEBI says it's a claim which is almost impossible to verify. 736 00:43:17,985 --> 00:43:21,705 {\an8}They have kept the documents at this warehouse in Navi Mumbai 737 00:43:21,785 --> 00:43:26,145 {\an8}where they are being studied by a group of 45 to 50 people 738 00:43:26,225 --> 00:43:28,145 {\an8}with 80 scanning machines. 739 00:43:28,225 --> 00:43:30,945 But they say that the material has been sent 740 00:43:31,025 --> 00:43:33,945 in an almost incomprehensible way, 741 00:43:34,025 --> 00:43:36,465 with the names of the depositors in one box 742 00:43:36,545 --> 00:43:39,345 and the refund vouchers in another box, 743 00:43:39,425 --> 00:43:44,585 as if to deliberately make the task of verification even more difficult. 744 00:43:48,025 --> 00:43:50,545 When the regulator did go through these boxes, 745 00:43:50,625 --> 00:43:55,185 there were a lot of names that came about which didn't have proper records - 746 00:43:55,265 --> 00:43:57,985 there was no proper address matching those names. 747 00:43:58,065 --> 00:44:00,705 A lot of those names showed up two to three thousand times, 748 00:44:00,785 --> 00:44:04,145 uh, with very generic names, sometimes names of cities, 749 00:44:04,225 --> 00:44:06,465 and that doesn't happen usually in India, right? 750 00:44:06,545 --> 00:44:09,825 You're not going to have someone named Mumbai. 751 00:44:10,385 --> 00:44:13,425 [reporter 1] When SEBI wrote to 20,000 sample depositors 752 00:44:13,505 --> 00:44:15,585 asking them to apply for a refund, 753 00:44:15,665 --> 00:44:18,745 only 68 wrote back, less than a percent. 754 00:44:19,425 --> 00:44:23,705 Sahara were claiming that they had all of these investors 755 00:44:23,785 --> 00:44:26,985 and it turned out that perhaps they didn't have these investors, 756 00:44:27,065 --> 00:44:31,625 perhaps the names of the investors they claimed to have had been made up. 757 00:44:34,225 --> 00:44:36,105 [reporter 2] There's a huge controversy, Mr. Roy. 758 00:44:36,185 --> 00:44:37,905 SEBI says, all these people 759 00:44:37,985 --> 00:44:40,545 who you claim as your investors are all fake. 760 00:44:40,625 --> 00:44:44,385 SEBI says, it wrote to 20,000 sample depositors... 761 00:44:45,545 --> 00:44:48,665 only 68 wrote back. 762 00:44:48,745 --> 00:44:51,465 Subrata Roy, if these are real depositors... 763 00:44:52,345 --> 00:44:53,825 should they not have written back? 764 00:44:54,225 --> 00:44:55,785 Now, tell me one thing - 765 00:44:55,865 --> 00:44:58,305 the persons, small persons, 766 00:44:58,385 --> 00:45:00,465 who have got back their money, 767 00:45:00,545 --> 00:45:03,465 why should they respond to SEBI's letter? 768 00:45:05,345 --> 00:45:08,785 The question that was on the mind of most people was, 769 00:45:08,865 --> 00:45:10,785 "Where are those depositors?" 770 00:45:10,865 --> 00:45:13,105 [reporter 1] A sample of the names and addresses 771 00:45:13,185 --> 00:45:15,465 of Sahara investors submitted to SEBI 772 00:45:15,545 --> 00:45:17,105 do not appear genuine, 773 00:45:17,185 --> 00:45:19,705 further confirmed on the ground by our reporters. 774 00:45:20,265 --> 00:45:23,265 {\an8}[in Hindi] I have asked all around. 775 00:45:23,345 --> 00:45:26,785 There is no one by that name living here. 776 00:45:26,865 --> 00:45:29,305 [in English] So, the regulators at that point thought, 777 00:45:29,385 --> 00:45:31,145 "Maybe there's a different problem here. 778 00:45:31,225 --> 00:45:33,585 Perhaps these investors never actually existed 779 00:45:33,665 --> 00:45:37,625 and the money that was coming into Sahara wasn't coming from small investors at all, 780 00:45:37,705 --> 00:45:39,705 it was coming from other sources." 781 00:45:40,385 --> 00:45:42,225 With full confidence I'm telling you, 782 00:45:42,305 --> 00:45:45,065 nobody on this earth can prove right as wrong. 783 00:45:45,145 --> 00:45:46,345 Nobody can do that. 784 00:45:46,425 --> 00:45:50,105 {\an8}Subrata Roy, of course, claims that these are all bona fide depositors, 785 00:45:50,185 --> 00:45:52,985 {\an8}the government agencies say that they are not, 786 00:45:53,065 --> 00:45:54,825 {\an8}these are phantom depositors, 787 00:45:54,905 --> 00:45:58,545 {\an8}and it's a way of funneling black money and money laundering - 788 00:45:58,625 --> 00:46:00,265 {\an8}it was a route that was used. 789 00:46:00,665 --> 00:46:04,105 Is the high-profile, sprawling Sahara business group 790 00:46:04,185 --> 00:46:07,305 guilty of running chit funds as a front for black money? 791 00:46:07,625 --> 00:46:09,545 [Crabtree] Well, that's the mystery of Sahara. 792 00:46:09,625 --> 00:46:14,105 Allegations of money laundering have never been conclusively proved, 793 00:46:14,185 --> 00:46:18,665 but certainly this is what was alleged by India's regulatory authorities. 794 00:46:19,865 --> 00:46:22,425 Various types of news are being published 795 00:46:22,505 --> 00:46:26,225 without caring to gather proper information from us. 796 00:46:26,305 --> 00:46:29,625 In this context, all I can say is that 797 00:46:29,705 --> 00:46:33,505 whosoever is indulging in such loose talks 798 00:46:33,585 --> 00:46:36,225 are fabricated and totally baseless. 799 00:46:36,705 --> 00:46:38,585 [Ailawadi] Every day, we opened the newspaper 800 00:46:38,665 --> 00:46:41,745 and we saw these long, very lengthy, verbose, 801 00:46:41,825 --> 00:46:45,665 sometimes emotional responses by the Sahara Group. 802 00:46:45,745 --> 00:46:48,545 And as journalists, everyone was receiving press releases as well, 803 00:46:48,625 --> 00:46:51,345 which were actually titled "Emotionally Speaking". 804 00:46:51,825 --> 00:46:54,225 He was refuting every allegation 805 00:46:54,305 --> 00:46:57,305 and also challenging the authorities 806 00:46:57,385 --> 00:47:00,305 to prove that they had done anything which was against the law 807 00:47:00,385 --> 00:47:02,185 and against "the spirit of the law". 808 00:47:02,265 --> 00:47:03,705 I remember those words very clearly. 809 00:47:03,785 --> 00:47:07,425 {\an8}If they can find out one thing 810 00:47:08,025 --> 00:47:09,345 {\an8}that in the last 32 years 811 00:47:09,425 --> 00:47:13,745 {\an8}Sahara has done against-- anything against the law or the spirit of law, 812 00:47:13,825 --> 00:47:16,825 {\an8}if one thing they can come out with, 813 00:47:16,905 --> 00:47:19,265 {\an8}if they can come out with one case 814 00:47:19,345 --> 00:47:22,025 {\an8}that Sahara's done a black-money business, one rupee, 815 00:47:23,145 --> 00:47:24,505 {\an8}they can hang me. 816 00:47:24,905 --> 00:47:25,905 Are you worried? 817 00:47:25,985 --> 00:47:27,665 You are putting our advertisements, 818 00:47:27,745 --> 00:47:30,625 you have made this a whole issue of, you know, nationalism, 819 00:47:30,705 --> 00:47:34,425 you painted yourself as a person, you know, who might be in a tight corner 820 00:47:34,505 --> 00:47:37,385 but who represents the values of this country etc. 821 00:47:37,465 --> 00:47:38,665 How can you fight back? 822 00:47:45,625 --> 00:47:47,025 At that point of time, 823 00:47:47,705 --> 00:47:50,105 I realized and felt 824 00:47:50,185 --> 00:47:56,025 that Sahara should do something which instils a sense of patriotism... 825 00:47:57,705 --> 00:48:01,865 {\an8}which binds the organization, which binds the nation, 826 00:48:01,945 --> 00:48:05,865 {\an8}does something good which brings a smile to everyone's face. 827 00:48:07,505 --> 00:48:10,745 We worked for almost... three weeks, 828 00:48:10,825 --> 00:48:15,025 day in and day out, a lot of coordination, people coming from different stations, 829 00:48:15,105 --> 00:48:18,465 different small cities, buses filled with people. 830 00:48:19,185 --> 00:48:22,905 Everything was so, you know, clinically done. 831 00:48:22,985 --> 00:48:28,665 [man speaking in Hindi] 832 00:48:28,745 --> 00:48:32,345 [in English] By having the largest number of people sing India's national anthem, 833 00:48:32,425 --> 00:48:35,825 you could argue that Mr. Subrata Roy 834 00:48:35,905 --> 00:48:38,025 and his associates 835 00:48:38,425 --> 00:48:42,065 sought to convey an impression that they were too big to fail - 836 00:48:42,145 --> 00:48:43,825 that if they failed, 837 00:48:43,905 --> 00:48:46,105 hundreds and thousands of jobs would be lost. 838 00:48:46,545 --> 00:48:47,505 No. 839 00:48:48,385 --> 00:48:50,065 No, I was next to him. 840 00:48:51,105 --> 00:48:52,505 No, not at all. 841 00:48:52,585 --> 00:48:55,985 You are trying to do something for the nation, 842 00:48:56,065 --> 00:48:58,945 you are not doing anything for any benefit. 843 00:48:59,745 --> 00:49:02,345 There's no objective, there's no agenda. 844 00:49:02,425 --> 00:49:07,425 [Roy over speakers] Five, four, three, two, one... 845 00:49:07,505 --> 00:49:13,145 ♪ Thou art the ruler Of the minds of all people ♪ 846 00:49:13,225 --> 00:49:18,065 ♪ Dispenser of India's destiny... ♪ 847 00:49:18,145 --> 00:49:21,265 [singing fades out] 848 00:49:21,345 --> 00:49:22,985 For Subrata Roy, 849 00:49:23,065 --> 00:49:26,905 emphasizing the whole idea of being part of a collective, 850 00:49:26,985 --> 00:49:28,785 part of something much bigger, 851 00:49:28,865 --> 00:49:33,305 {\an8}that was a very important message to communicate to people 852 00:49:33,385 --> 00:49:35,705 {\an8}at a time when there was a lot of suspicion 853 00:49:35,785 --> 00:49:41,785 {\an8}around exactly what business he was in, exactly who he was. 854 00:49:41,865 --> 00:49:48,505 [in Hindi] One point one million people singing. What was the idea behind this? 855 00:49:48,585 --> 00:49:52,385 It had to be done, had to be done. So, it was done. 856 00:49:53,105 --> 00:49:57,545 [in English] He wanted the world to believe that he was the ultimate patriot, 857 00:49:57,625 --> 00:50:00,025 but, clearly, this argument 858 00:50:00,545 --> 00:50:02,705 did not cut much ice with... 859 00:50:04,025 --> 00:50:05,665 the regulatory authorities. 860 00:50:09,025 --> 00:50:11,825 [reporter in Hindi] As far as your ongoing disputes with SEBI, 861 00:50:11,905 --> 00:50:16,105 the Supreme Court has clearly ordered that you should return the money. 862 00:50:16,745 --> 00:50:20,185 The money, we have already paid it out, in cash. 863 00:50:22,745 --> 00:50:25,225 [Thakurta in English] He tried to bluster his way through... 864 00:50:25,305 --> 00:50:26,545 [indistinct shouting] 865 00:50:26,625 --> 00:50:29,145 ...but his arrogance didn't help him. 866 00:50:29,225 --> 00:50:32,785 [in Hindi] They say I'm in contempt. [in English] They are in the contempt. 867 00:50:32,865 --> 00:50:36,105 [in Hindi] But they are government goons - they may do what they want. 868 00:50:36,745 --> 00:50:41,785 They are whimsical, fanciful, egoistic and greedy. 869 00:50:42,425 --> 00:50:44,745 {\an8}[overlapping voices shouting] 870 00:50:44,825 --> 00:50:48,305 {\an8}[man shouting] The man's a thief! 871 00:50:48,385 --> 00:50:50,585 [faint indistinct shouting] 872 00:50:51,145 --> 00:50:52,865 [reporter] Sahara chief, Subrata Roy, 873 00:50:52,945 --> 00:50:57,385 has had black ink thrown on him outside court today. 874 00:50:57,865 --> 00:51:00,505 He's a thief! 875 00:51:00,585 --> 00:51:03,225 [reporter] The person who splashed ink on Subrata Roy's face 876 00:51:03,305 --> 00:51:09,545 is saying that Sahara chief, Subrata Roy, has embezzled people's money. 877 00:51:09,625 --> 00:51:13,545 He says he did it because people's accounts have been looted. 878 00:51:17,145 --> 00:51:19,425 [Bajaj in English] I met Subrata Roy in Lucknow. 879 00:51:20,225 --> 00:51:22,705 I told him, "Sir... they are closing in, 880 00:51:23,905 --> 00:51:27,025 and the usual methods here are not going to work. 881 00:51:27,505 --> 00:51:29,065 I mean, come on, what are you doing? 882 00:51:29,145 --> 00:51:31,105 We don't have to get everybody's back up. 883 00:51:31,185 --> 00:51:33,425 {\an8}You can't attack the Supreme Court of India, 884 00:51:33,505 --> 00:51:35,585 {\an8}the income tax, the parliament and everybody else. 885 00:51:35,985 --> 00:51:37,465 You can't do that. 886 00:51:37,545 --> 00:51:42,105 The Supreme Court is really and truly angry." 887 00:51:44,945 --> 00:51:45,745 Well... 888 00:51:46,985 --> 00:51:49,025 he listened for exactly two and a half minutes. 889 00:51:49,825 --> 00:51:51,065 Then, you know what happened. 890 00:51:58,785 --> 00:52:02,865 {\an8}[reporter in Hindi] What's going on? What are your orders? 891 00:52:02,945 --> 00:52:05,305 {\an8}We have a warrant for his arrest. 892 00:52:05,385 --> 00:52:06,665 {\an8}[reporter] For whose arrest? 893 00:52:07,905 --> 00:52:09,065 {\an8}Subrata Roy's arrest. 894 00:52:10,985 --> 00:52:12,865 {\an8}[in English] When the news of the arrest broke, 895 00:52:12,945 --> 00:52:16,585 {\an8}I remember media channels went-- all newsrooms went into a frenzy. 896 00:52:16,665 --> 00:52:18,905 -[car honking] -[indistinct shouting] 897 00:52:18,985 --> 00:52:20,505 High drama in Lucknow today 898 00:52:20,585 --> 00:52:23,785 as one of India's most flamboyant tycoons, Subrata Roy, is arrested. 899 00:52:23,865 --> 00:52:25,745 While there was always talk 900 00:52:25,825 --> 00:52:27,905 and there were murmurs that this could happen, 901 00:52:28,305 --> 00:52:31,705 no one fathomed, no one expected this to happen. 902 00:52:33,025 --> 00:52:37,105 He didn't show up for a hearing, he didn't comply with the court's order. 903 00:52:37,665 --> 00:52:40,745 He said that it was because of his ailing mother 904 00:52:40,825 --> 00:52:42,385 and this was in contempt. 905 00:52:42,905 --> 00:52:45,265 [reporter] Subrata Roy's lawyer told the Supreme Court 906 00:52:45,345 --> 00:52:46,945 that he was unable to appear 907 00:52:47,025 --> 00:52:49,465 as he was by the side of his 92-year-old mother 908 00:52:49,545 --> 00:52:51,385 who was in a critical condition. 909 00:52:51,465 --> 00:52:54,945 He wrote for the court's benefit "nothing is more than mother." 910 00:52:55,625 --> 00:52:58,505 {\an8}But the same day he apparently attended a wedding in Lucknow, 911 00:52:58,585 --> 00:53:01,665 {\an8}according to photographs that appeared in the local media. 912 00:53:02,145 --> 00:53:05,225 {\an8}[Bamzai] Contempt of court was certainly a lesser charge. 913 00:53:05,305 --> 00:53:08,825 {\an8}But my gut reaction when he was arrested was "about time," 914 00:53:08,905 --> 00:53:12,425 {\an8}[chuckles] and "how had he not seen it coming?" 915 00:53:12,505 --> 00:53:15,465 [reporter 1] He could have sold his assets worth 20,000 crores 916 00:53:15,545 --> 00:53:17,425 and paid the money, but didn't. 917 00:53:17,505 --> 00:53:21,065 It is deliberate deficiency of Subrata Roy not to obey the court orders. 918 00:53:21,145 --> 00:53:24,545 [reporter 2] He failed to explain why his company has not refunded 919 00:53:24,625 --> 00:53:29,425 the 24,000-crore rupees it owes to over three-crores small investors. 920 00:53:30,065 --> 00:53:34,185 The Delhi police brought Sahara chief, Subrata Roy, here at Tihar jail. 921 00:53:34,265 --> 00:53:37,385 The Tihar jail officers have said that he will be kept in jail number three 922 00:53:37,465 --> 00:53:39,745 and no special privileges will be given to him. 923 00:53:40,625 --> 00:53:42,705 By the way, until this case happened... 924 00:53:43,945 --> 00:53:46,185 until such time as Saharashri was jailed... 925 00:53:47,305 --> 00:53:50,865 there was not a single check of Sahara which had bounced, 926 00:53:50,945 --> 00:53:55,265 they had not defaulted on a single payment to a single investor. 927 00:53:56,505 --> 00:53:57,705 And I know that for a fact. 928 00:54:02,105 --> 00:54:05,345 [Punam in Hindi] When Subrata Roy was in jail, I got a call from Sahara. 929 00:54:05,425 --> 00:54:07,385 I said, "We do not want to reinvest. 930 00:54:07,465 --> 00:54:11,705 Return the money because these are very poor people. 931 00:54:11,785 --> 00:54:17,625 {\an8}They trusted me and I don't want to break their trust." 932 00:54:19,505 --> 00:54:23,745 [ringing tone] 933 00:54:23,825 --> 00:54:24,945 [receiver clicks] 934 00:54:25,025 --> 00:54:26,945 -[man on phone] Hello. -[Kondu] Hello? 935 00:54:27,025 --> 00:54:30,385 -[man on phone]Yes? -My name is Prabhavati. 936 00:54:30,465 --> 00:54:32,585 -[man on phone]Yes? -Is this Sahara's office? 937 00:54:33,465 --> 00:54:34,945 [man on phone] I will connect you. 938 00:54:35,545 --> 00:54:36,425 Ah... 939 00:54:37,585 --> 00:54:39,145 -Sa-- -Is this Sahara's office? 940 00:54:39,225 --> 00:54:40,945 Is this Sahara's office? 941 00:54:42,425 --> 00:54:44,185 He said he's connecting us soon. 942 00:54:44,825 --> 00:54:47,785 [on-hold music playing] 943 00:54:48,545 --> 00:54:49,945 [Kondu] We want our money. 944 00:54:51,065 --> 00:54:53,385 It shouldn't be like this. 945 00:54:58,025 --> 00:55:01,745 It's one thing for this to happen in small families, 946 00:55:01,825 --> 00:55:04,265 but they are a big company. 947 00:55:07,065 --> 00:55:10,385 They took the public's money, asking them to invest. 948 00:55:11,025 --> 00:55:15,345 They assured the money will get doubled, 949 00:55:15,425 --> 00:55:17,345 more than doubled, 950 00:55:17,425 --> 00:55:19,305 but how could they do this to us? 951 00:55:19,825 --> 00:55:21,105 [music continues] 952 00:55:21,185 --> 00:55:23,665 [dropped call tone] 953 00:55:23,745 --> 00:55:25,665 -It's disconnected. -It's disconnected. 954 00:55:26,305 --> 00:55:27,305 Not responding. 955 00:55:28,785 --> 00:55:31,265 [automated voice in English] The service to the dialed number 956 00:55:31,345 --> 00:55:33,585 has been temporarily withdrawn. Thank you. 957 00:55:46,265 --> 00:55:49,465 [reporter in Hindi] Subrata Roy is going to have many sleepless nights. 958 00:55:49,865 --> 00:55:54,345 The Supreme Court's ultimatum has sent him straight to Tihar jail. 959 00:55:55,345 --> 00:55:57,425 {\an8}He can still be let free 960 00:55:57,505 --> 00:56:01,065 {\an8}provided he presents a concrete plan for the reimbursement of money owed. 961 00:56:02,705 --> 00:56:07,385 [Paul in English] Here was Subrata Roy, this extremely enigmatic, 962 00:56:07,465 --> 00:56:09,985 big business tycoon in jail. 963 00:56:11,705 --> 00:56:14,785 I remember we were all, you know, running helter-skelter, 964 00:56:14,865 --> 00:56:18,745 and, um, I struck a rapport with his team members 965 00:56:18,825 --> 00:56:21,905 and persuaded them to allow me to meet him. 966 00:56:26,945 --> 00:56:28,585 He seemed quite hurt. 967 00:56:28,985 --> 00:56:32,745 He firmly believed that his detention was illegal. 968 00:56:32,825 --> 00:56:37,905 He also firmly believed that all his depositors were bona fide 969 00:56:37,985 --> 00:56:44,065 and, um, this was a conspiracy that was being hatched against him. 970 00:56:47,865 --> 00:56:51,505 He was, um, quite concerned about putting on weight. 971 00:56:52,705 --> 00:56:55,545 He had a yoga instructor coming in early in the morning 972 00:56:55,625 --> 00:56:57,825 who would guide him through his asanas. 973 00:57:00,705 --> 00:57:02,265 [laughing] Oh, that. 974 00:57:02,345 --> 00:57:06,505 I mean, I was-- what again surprised me and amused me 975 00:57:06,585 --> 00:57:08,825 was that he wrote a book from jail. 976 00:57:11,305 --> 00:57:14,945 He wants to project himself like a freedom fighter 977 00:57:15,025 --> 00:57:20,385 who went to jail, who goes to jail, and still has great pure thoughts. 978 00:57:23,145 --> 00:57:25,905 But this is not a book written by Mahatma Gandhi in jail, 979 00:57:25,985 --> 00:57:27,705 [chuckles] or a freedom fighter, 980 00:57:28,465 --> 00:57:32,345 this is somebody who the Supreme Court has described as a rogue. 981 00:57:36,065 --> 00:57:38,185 [in Hindi] For the last three years, 982 00:57:38,265 --> 00:57:41,065 the company has not been paying out at all. 983 00:57:42,305 --> 00:57:44,785 I haven't even been able to get my father's paralysis treated. 984 00:57:44,865 --> 00:57:46,865 He's been bedridden for almost three years. 985 00:57:50,105 --> 00:57:52,225 [man] Sir, this has been going on with everyone. 986 00:57:53,345 --> 00:57:55,425 Her husband had a brain tumor. 987 00:57:55,825 --> 00:57:58,105 She went to the Sahara office many times. 988 00:57:58,905 --> 00:58:03,545 Eventually, her husband passed away. The company did not return a single rupee. 989 00:58:04,265 --> 00:58:05,665 [woman] I told them everything. 990 00:58:05,745 --> 00:58:08,265 I showed them the medical reports from all the hospitals. 991 00:58:08,345 --> 00:58:10,745 But they said, what can they do without the money? 992 00:58:12,385 --> 00:58:14,145 They said, "The scheme has matured, 993 00:58:14,225 --> 00:58:17,345 but if we don't have the money, how can we give it to you?" 994 00:58:19,025 --> 00:58:22,105 [Pradhan in English] I've been to places where hundreds of people... 995 00:58:22,945 --> 00:58:25,945 came forward, telling me the same common problem. 996 00:58:26,945 --> 00:58:29,025 Subrata Roy may have gone to jail, 997 00:58:29,105 --> 00:58:32,705 but fact of the matter is that most of the depositors 998 00:58:32,785 --> 00:58:34,745 who shelled out all their savings, 999 00:58:35,625 --> 00:58:37,465 they never got their money back. 1000 00:58:40,065 --> 00:58:43,625 All across the country, they are at a complete loss. 1001 00:58:44,185 --> 00:58:47,425 [reporter 1 in Telugu] At the Sahara finance office in Kurnool, 1002 00:58:47,505 --> 00:58:50,145 people impacted by this organization have come out 1003 00:58:50,225 --> 00:58:54,545 saying their money has been taken as fixed deposits. 1004 00:58:54,905 --> 00:58:58,225 [man shouting in Hindi] 1005 00:58:58,905 --> 00:59:02,785 [reporter 2] Approximately $150,000 has been taken by this branch alone 1006 00:59:02,865 --> 00:59:04,545 and not returned. 1007 00:59:05,585 --> 00:59:09,625 [men continue shouting] 1008 00:59:10,625 --> 00:59:13,905 [reporter 3 in English] Look in any of the small towns of the Hindi heartland 1009 00:59:13,985 --> 00:59:15,865 and our reporters would find those 1010 00:59:15,945 --> 00:59:18,705 who have trusted Sahara with their meagre earnings. 1011 00:59:19,545 --> 00:59:20,745 Where is the money? 1012 00:59:25,825 --> 00:59:28,505 OK, there's some breaking news that is coming in now. 1013 00:59:28,585 --> 00:59:32,105 Parole has been granted to Saharashri Subrata Roy. 1014 00:59:32,185 --> 00:59:34,785 [indistinct shouting] 1015 00:59:36,545 --> 00:59:40,825 [whistling] 1016 01:00:07,425 --> 01:00:11,865 [Punam in Hindi] Whenever I go to Malvan, the people first come and ask me, 1017 01:00:11,945 --> 01:00:14,985 "Sister, when will we get our money? When will we get our money?" 1018 01:00:16,665 --> 01:00:19,825 Each time, I have to tell them, "The case is not over. 1019 01:00:19,905 --> 01:00:22,825 Until the case is over, I can't say anything." 1020 01:00:24,825 --> 01:00:26,065 I feel very ashamed 1021 01:00:26,145 --> 01:00:29,585 that I have to give them an answer which seems to have no end. 1022 01:00:39,225 --> 01:00:40,665 [bell chiming] 1023 01:00:47,265 --> 01:00:52,265 [bell continues chiming] 1024 01:00:58,985 --> 01:01:00,345 [Kondu] Why did this happen? 1025 01:01:03,305 --> 01:01:04,705 This should not have happened. 1026 01:01:11,225 --> 01:01:13,545 [inaudible] 1027 01:01:17,425 --> 01:01:20,065 But we don't have any enmity towards him. 1028 01:01:21,865 --> 01:01:23,985 Sometimes, these things happen in families. 1029 01:01:28,865 --> 01:01:31,225 [in English] There is still a class of people 1030 01:01:31,305 --> 01:01:33,705 who continue to believe 1031 01:01:33,785 --> 01:01:36,865 that, yes, he's a man who can do no wrong. 1032 01:01:37,745 --> 01:01:39,385 He is a man with charisma, 1033 01:01:39,465 --> 01:01:42,145 he has-- that man has divinity in him, 1034 01:01:42,225 --> 01:01:44,065 he has the business consciousness. 1035 01:01:44,985 --> 01:01:46,785 He is the bestest teacher, 1036 01:01:46,865 --> 01:01:49,585 human psychologist I have ever seen in my life. 1037 01:01:53,745 --> 01:01:56,905 [Bajaj] I have seen people swear by Sahara. 1038 01:01:56,985 --> 01:01:59,265 I have seen people in Madhya Pradesh, 1039 01:01:59,785 --> 01:02:00,945 in Chhattisgarh, 1040 01:02:01,025 --> 01:02:04,305 in the Naxalite-infested jungles of Gadchiroli, 1041 01:02:05,065 --> 01:02:07,985 they had more faith in Sahara than they had in Indian banks, 1042 01:02:08,665 --> 01:02:11,225 than in the banking institutions of government. 1043 01:02:12,865 --> 01:02:14,425 [Thakurta] Somewhere along the line, 1044 01:02:14,505 --> 01:02:17,265 I think he bit off much more than what he could chew. 1045 01:02:17,945 --> 01:02:19,865 Hubris caught up with him 1046 01:02:19,945 --> 01:02:23,545 and today he's a pale shadow of what he was. 1047 01:02:23,625 --> 01:02:27,585 [motorbike engine puttering] 1048 01:02:27,665 --> 01:02:29,265 [Jamvwal] Saharashri's story... 1049 01:02:30,385 --> 01:02:34,265 is a story of a visionary who was able to pull it off. 1050 01:02:34,865 --> 01:02:36,625 But when he reached there, 1051 01:02:37,265 --> 01:02:38,505 he could have... 1052 01:02:39,945 --> 01:02:42,105 been more cognizant of the law. 1053 01:02:42,825 --> 01:02:44,705 They were people who trusted him. 1054 01:02:44,785 --> 01:02:47,025 They were people who believed in him. 1055 01:02:47,105 --> 01:02:48,945 You can't let them down. 1056 01:02:50,825 --> 01:02:53,025 And I think that's a great lesson there 1057 01:02:53,105 --> 01:02:55,905 for everyone trying to make it big in India - 1058 01:02:55,985 --> 01:02:57,145 that you do it... 1059 01:02:58,305 --> 01:02:59,865 with a sense of integrity. 1060 01:03:16,185 --> 01:03:18,465 [theme music playing]