1 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,880 We're in an interview room on the first floor 2 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,800 at the police station at Gloucester. 3 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,720 Can you tell us your full name? 4 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,600 Frederick Walter Stephen West. 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,240 - And your address? - 25 Cromwell Street. 6 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,480 Things are happening at your house at the moment. 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,800 {\an8}I'm stood at the back door of 25 Cromwell Street, Gloucester, 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,640 {\an8}looking down the garden towards the city center. 9 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,000 The police have been there this afternoon, 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:53,400 and they are in fact digging up your back patio. 11 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,320 {\an8}Here's the, uh, first slab being removed. 12 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,880 We're concerned about the whereabouts of your daughter. 13 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,200 Is she under the patio at your house? 14 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,760 Oh, for God's sake. I mean, do you believe it? 15 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,280 You find her, and I'll be happy. 16 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,320 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester 17 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,640 continues to yield its secrets. 18 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,240 Journalists and TV crews have traveled 19 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:58,960 from all corners of the earth. 20 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,920 Police say they're not sure exactly how many bodies there may be. 21 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,680 I've been told that there might be 12 people. Where does it end? 22 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,000 The priority now is trying to trace Mr. West's extensive family. 23 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,200 "We're going to do a thorough search at 25 Cromwell Street." 24 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:17,360 "We're not leaving until we've done that." 25 00:02:19,920 --> 00:02:21,640 You're enjoying it. 26 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:22,840 Yeah, why not? 27 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:25,240 I don't know. I don't understand it. 28 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,360 You will in the end. 29 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:04,320 I was a journalist 30 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,640 on the city's local newspaper, The Citizen. 31 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:13,080 It was my first job, so I was very much a junior reporter at that time. 32 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,760 Quite green, very naive. 33 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,320 And then I was made the crime correspondent 34 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,600 not long, actually, before February 1994. 35 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,160 I had a phone call from the reception to say 36 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,480 that one of our paper sellers was down at the back entrance. 37 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,200 He told me that the police were digging up a garden in Cromwell Street, 38 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,040 which wasn't that far from the office. 39 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,280 So a photographer and I went down to take a look. 40 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:48,920 It was quite a scruffy street. 41 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,640 There were mainly Edwardian terraced houses. 42 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,200 Most of them had seen better days. 43 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,200 We found number 25. 44 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,520 It was at the end of a row of houses. 45 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,280 It was fairly run down, 46 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,560 but there wasn't anything remarkable about it. 47 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,160 You couldn't really see anything from the front, 48 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:12,920 so we went round the back. 49 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,280 {\an8}There were police officers, we assumed them to be, with shovels, 50 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,000 {\an8}levering up paving stones, 51 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,080 {\an8}and they'd got about three or four up so far. 52 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,080 {\an8}So obviously, they hadn't been long there. 53 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,680 {\an8}We said, "Hello. We're from The Citizen," 54 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,360 and we asked them what they were looking for, 55 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,440 and they refused to tell us. 56 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,600 {\an8}The photographer took a photograph… 57 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:46,480 …and then we left. 58 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,760 Something important was going on, that much was clear. 59 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:52,800 We thought they were probably looking for a body, 60 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,280 because why else would the police dig up a garden? 61 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,600 But at that point, we didn't know who. 62 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,960 In 1994, I'd been in the police for 12 years. 63 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,080 You deal with things, difficult things. 64 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,880 But the West investigation did change me in terms of 65 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,880 what I thought was possible, what I… 66 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,560 …what I thought people could do to each other. 67 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,000 {\an8}- Is it on, Dad? - Yeah. 68 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,840 So at the beginning of the investigation, 69 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,560 what we had was information coming from school and social services 70 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,880 who were involved in the West family at the time 71 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,040 about the way the children were being treated. 72 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,480 Get down. You might fall over. 73 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,600 We found out that Fred and Rose, they were a married couple. 74 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,160 They had ten children. 75 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,360 Some were theirs together, and some were from other relationships. 76 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,000 The younger children had been placed into care, 77 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,800 which took them away from the family. 78 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:18,720 Those children were still going to school, and there started to reverberate 79 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,440 a common theme between… between them all. 80 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,720 It was alleged by the children 81 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,800 that if they misbehaved, they would end up under the patio, 82 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,240 like their sister Heather. 83 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,480 It's not only the frequency that it was said, 84 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,920 but how many different children were saying it. 85 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,760 It got to a level that 86 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:49,760 it could not be ignored, because nobody could find Heather. 87 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,760 She had literally disappeared off the face of the earth, 88 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:03,280 and everyone was hoping that she was going to be found safe and well somewhere. 89 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,000 John Bennett was senior investigation officer. 90 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,560 He had overall charge of the case. 91 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,880 Darren Law was a detective assistant on the case, 92 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,840 and Hazel Savage, DC, 93 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,040 took on the mantle of being the officer in the case for the missing Heather. 94 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,960 Fred hadn't been arrested on that Thursday. 95 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,600 In fact, he had gone to the police station voluntarily 96 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,320 to help us with our inquiries. 97 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,280 It's Thursday, 98 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,200 24th February 1994. 99 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,040 My name's DC Hazel Savage. 100 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:59,240 Fred, Heather has not been heard of since 1986. 101 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,800 Did you report her as a missing person to the police? 102 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:05,640 No. 103 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,640 The children are saying that it was a family joke 104 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,160 that she was underneath the patio. 105 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,120 You're laughing. 106 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,600 Just supposing you did. I mean, you're not going to sit there and say, 107 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,120 "Your sister's under the patio." 108 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,560 We better pack it away, Hazel. We're talking rubbish. 109 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:29,040 We can't, can we? 110 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,280 You're digging me place up, so carry on. 111 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,640 - I mean, why bother? - That's right. 112 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,000 And obviously, if there's anybody under there, Fred, we will find them. 113 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:39,800 There you are. 114 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,560 In normal cases, you arrest somebody, 115 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,520 and then you put the evidence that you have found to the offender 116 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,200 and listen to their explanation if they're gonna provide one. 117 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,760 But we weren't in that position 118 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,880 because we were still gathering the evidence. 119 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,520 We didn't have enough to charge him with anything at that stage. 120 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,720 So later that night, he returned to Cromwell Street. 121 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,840 On Friday morning, we had a tip 122 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,560 that they were looking for a girl who hadn't been seen for eight years. 123 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,400 I went down to the register office and asked for the birth certificate 124 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,680 of anyone in the house that might match the date of this person who was missing, 125 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,120 and we were handed the birth certificate for Heather West. 126 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,640 And so I called the police and said, 127 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,560 "Is it true you're looking for Heather West?" 128 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,520 And they were a bit horrified that we'd worked it out. 129 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,680 There was some to-ing and fro-ing, but in the end, they admitted they were. 130 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,520 Our first story was front-page news, and it said, "Police Hunt for Body." 131 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,600 Detectives believe the solution to an eight-year mystery 132 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:11,160 may be buried in the back garden of this terraced house in Gloucester. 133 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,440 It belongs to a couple whose daughter vanished in 1986, 134 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,120 but no one ever reported that Heather West had disappeared. 135 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,400 By then, other local journalists had come down to Cromwell Street, 136 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:29,160 and the local TV news was there as well, reporting on what was going on. 137 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,120 We've undertaken the inquiries into her disappearance, 138 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,200 and because of the inquiries that we've made, 139 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:37,960 we're at the stage that we are today. 140 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:40,360 What has been found so far? 141 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,400 We have found some… some bones, 142 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,000 but at this stage, they're thought to be animal bones. 143 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,960 Digging was still taking place, and the police were controlling the house. 144 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,760 As the news broke and as the media became involved, 145 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,800 Fred asked to talk to the detectives. 146 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,720 We were invited into the living room in the address. 147 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,760 {\an8}They'd both left the room, leaving myself and WDC Hazel Savage 148 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:08,920 {\an8}sort of stood in the room, 149 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,120 {\an8}wondering really what's going on at that point. 150 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,400 {\an8}After a short time, Fred came back 151 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,160 and, uh, basically said something along the lines of, 152 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:17,960 "You better take me to the police station." 153 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,640 "I have killed Heather, but you're digging in the wrong place." 154 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:23,640 What is going on? 155 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,720 I was meant to have a career as an opera singer, 156 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,960 but having met a solicitor at a convention, 157 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,760 decided that I wanted to help people. 158 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,080 That was on the false assumption 159 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,720 that people would necessarily want to be helped. 160 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:05,200 That afternoon, I was heading out into the hills to Stroud Magistrates Court. 161 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,920 A call came through, which was that 162 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:14,400 Fred West had been arrested on suspicion of murder. 163 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,400 I'm trying to cope with this news, 164 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:24,280 um, and thinking I've got to get over to Gloucester as soon as possible. 165 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:29,080 I was also concerned, of course, to speak to Fred at the first opportunity. 166 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,040 So I then made a call to the Gloucester police station 167 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,680 to give him his first professional advice. 168 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,600 They put Fred on, 169 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:41,680 and I rather went 170 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,640 along the traditional, uh, lines of the, uh, defense solicitor, 171 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,160 which is to, pardon the French, 172 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,640 to shut the fuck up, um, until I get there. 173 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,680 Fred replied, 174 00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:57,520 "Well, I've already admitted it." 175 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:00,440 And so you think, "Okay." 176 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,080 I was working towards a diploma in social work, 177 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,360 and I'd approached the Homeless Project 178 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:16,800 in the view of becoming an appropriate adult. 179 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,640 When someone gets in trouble with the police, 180 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:22,200 we'd go down to the police station 181 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,560 {\an8}just to make sure that their, um, needs were being met 182 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,560 {\an8}and they were being properly looked after. 183 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:32,400 I'd just finished college, and the phone was ringing when I came through the door. 184 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,280 It was the Homeless Project asking 185 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:36,400 could I go out to Gloucester police station? 186 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,840 The police officer came and took me down to the custody suite, 187 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,800 and I was introduced to Fred West. 188 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,240 He sort of stood up, introduced himself. 189 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:51,520 And that was it, really. 190 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,320 Soon after, we went into an interview. 191 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,760 This interview is being recorded at Gloucester Central Police Station. 192 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,200 I'm Detective Constable Darren Law, and my colleague… 193 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,880 - DC Hazel Savage. - Everybody introduce themselves. 194 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,840 - Frederick West. - Janet Leach, appropriate adult. 195 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,640 Howard Ogden, solicitor. 196 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:19,440 So here we are, concerning the murder of Heather. 197 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,680 We are all there with a different role. 198 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,400 We were subsequently to have an interview that was chilling 199 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,880 and affected everybody who was present for the rest of their lives. 200 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,240 Do you understand the difference between telling the truth 201 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:43,720 and telling fibs? 202 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:44,680 Yeah. 203 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,240 I never intended to hurt Heather at all. 204 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,080 All I wanted to do was persuade Heather to stay at home, 205 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:53,960 and if she wouldn't, let her go. 206 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,400 But by this time, I had no control over me thoughts at all. 207 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:04,000 There was a piece of electric flex, I believe it was 13 amp, 208 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,360 and I picked it up and I thought, "I better make sure that she is dead," 209 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,120 so I tied it round her neck. 210 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,280 I then went back to the cupboard to try and find something to cut her up with. 211 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,440 Tell the officers then, Fred, what item did you use to complete 212 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:23,840 the exercise of dismembering Heather. 213 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,800 The bread knife. 214 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:46,320 A man is describing murdering and dismembering his daughter. 215 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:53,520 It wasn't with floods of tears and distress and anxiety. 216 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:58,040 It was simply a black-and-white set of facts. 217 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:02,040 When the tape finished, 218 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,320 all of us present in that interview just rose 219 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,680 and went to a tiny little tea area, 220 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,120 and we just had a group hug. 221 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,520 Complete strangers. Never met one another. 222 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,120 A silent group hug. 223 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,360 I think I was in a state of shock. I just thought, you know, 224 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,880 "What on earth are you actually doing here?" 225 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,520 You know, "You shouldn't be here," but… 226 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,400 He sort of said to me afterwards, "Would you come again tomorrow?" 227 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,600 And I said, "Oh, well, you know, I don't know about that." 228 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,160 And that's when the police said, you know, "Will you come tomorrow?" 229 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,840 Um… I should have really said no. 230 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,400 I got a call from my secretary 231 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,560 to say that Rose West had also been arrested 232 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,320 on suspicion of murder, 233 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,680 and I was taken to the holding cell where Rose West was straightaway. 234 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:28,600 {\an8}She looked rather dowdy in slacks and a loose-fitting top. 235 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,840 It was put to her that Fred had confessed to killing Heather, 236 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,960 and that evoked a shriek from her. 237 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,360 And she was constantly saying, 238 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,040 "If Fred's done anything, it's that Fred West." 239 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:46,360 My job there is to act on the client's instructions, 240 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,840 and those remained very clear. 241 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,480 That it was nothing to do with her. It was all Fred West. 242 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,360 At that point, Fred and Rose's interviews 243 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,400 were what solicitors would refer to as a "fishing exercise," 244 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,480 insomuch as we were still in the dark about a lot of these things 245 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,400 and still reliant upon them providing that information. 246 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:15,040 Fred was taken back to 25 Cromwell Street, still in custody, 247 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:17,800 to point out where Heather was buried. 248 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,800 I think maybe the strategy that Fred was hoping for is 249 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:28,160 if he makes admissions, points out where Heather was buried, 250 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,720 then the police would be satisfied with that and stop the digging. 251 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,920 {\an8}That's the prisoner in front of you. 252 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,120 {\an8}The appropriate adult, DC Savage, Mr. Ogden. 253 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,320 {\an8}Where's the location? Where do you think she's buried? 254 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:06,560 {\an8}Across there. 255 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,800 {\an8}In the center of your screen is the position indicated 256 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,960 {\an8}by the prisoner as to where the deceased was buried. 257 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,280 {\an8}It was really strange. It was dark. It was raining. 258 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,280 {\an8}He was upset about the state of his garden, more so than anything. 259 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,920 {\an8}There's no footings under that building. 260 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,040 {\an8}Oh. Right, okay. 261 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,760 {\an8}- It's a separate matter, is that? - We haven't gone right to the edge. 262 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,960 {\an8}He just kept looking at me and winking. 263 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,840 {\an8}As if it was some sort of game. 264 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,560 {\an8}When we got back, I said to him, you know, "What did you mean?" 265 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,680 "Why were… You know, what was you looking at me like that for?" 266 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,240 And he said, "Didn't you see that bone sticking out?" 267 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,320 And I said, "Well, no, I didn't." And he said, "It's just by the back door." 268 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:04,720 {\an8}Uh, this is the support group beginning to dig in the area 269 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,080 {\an8}where the prisoner indicated. 270 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,400 {\an8}Okay, 19:52, and the boys have found something. 271 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,040 Uh, ladies and gentlemen, excavations have continued 272 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:34,680 in Cromwell Street. 273 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,440 Police officers searching the scene found what appear to be human remains. 274 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,760 I had a call from Gloucester Police to go up there, 275 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,360 and they brought a bone to the police station, 276 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,200 {\an8}and it was obviously a human thighbone, a femur, 277 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,440 {\an8}and obviously a youngish person and obviously female. 278 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:00,400 {\an8}You can tell that just at a glance. 279 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,960 Off we go to Cromwell Street. 280 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,320 I scrabbled about a bit in the muck and the mud. 281 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,520 The bones are in a filthy state. 282 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,760 We washed them on the spot as well as we could. 283 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,440 Some of the bones had been deliberately damaged. 284 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:21,680 They had cuts on them from what could be an axe or a very sharp cleaver. 285 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,360 Professor Knight, the gentleman from the Home Office, 286 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,880 has looked at the bones, and he's saying 287 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:38,720 that you do not cut a full-grown body into pieces cleanly, 288 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,480 quickly, unless you are very well experienced at it. 289 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,920 He obviously hasn't done it, then. 290 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,880 Well, he probably hasn't murdered, no. 291 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,920 You know, there's a difference between thinking and knowing. 292 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,720 I'm taken to Cromwell Street to see the remains. 293 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,280 So in looking down into this pit, 294 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,560 there was the skeleton with the hair in place. 295 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,120 Long, black hair. 296 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,080 As lawyers, we deal with evidential matters 297 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,160 and paperwork and so on, 298 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:31,640 but here, you are looking at the result of criminality before your very eyes. 299 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,960 The kids were right when they talked about Heather. 300 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,240 We have found her. 301 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,360 {\an8}This was meant to be finding Heather. End of story. 302 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,880 It turned out, tragically, that it was only the beginning. 303 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,160 Has Rose been told? How did she take it? 304 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,760 I expect she hates me at the moment. 305 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,440 All through the interview, Rose went, "No comment." 306 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,480 Ultimately, the decision's got to be made, 307 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,520 uh, about how much evidence there is to keep that person in custody. 308 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,160 As a solicitor, you have to believe your client. 309 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,640 Otherwise, you can't act for them, 310 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,120 and if she was saying she was innocent, then Leo had to say she was innocent 311 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,320 because that was his role. 312 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,760 He was saying, "She's answered all your questions." 313 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,080 "She denies an offense." 314 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,480 "You either charge my client, or you release them on bail." 315 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:41,520 "What's it gonna be?" 316 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:48,240 Rose was bailed, but the police were concerned about arrangements, 317 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,960 and so they decided it was essential that she would go into a safe house 318 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,760 and that the older children be with her. 319 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,800 We put a listening device into the safe house 320 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,080 to catch Rose from making any forms of admission 321 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,360 or providing any evidence to what happened to Heather and what she knew. 322 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,720 There was a win-win situation for the police in terms of, 323 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,880 "We've got nothing to lose and potentially an awful lot to gain." 324 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:20,520 It was just about waiting patiently. 325 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,800 We were trying to build up a picture 326 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,560 of what the house was like, 327 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,440 and we discovered that the top floor was given over to lodgers. 328 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,960 We spoke to a couple of ex-lodgers who said it was a strange place, 329 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,680 lots of men coming and going, 330 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,240 so we were beginning to build up a picture of a household that wasn't normal. 331 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,920 But beyond that, we… we didn't really know that much more. 332 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,560 I lived at Cromwell Street from October '76 to November '77. 333 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,680 I was basically a runaway. 334 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,160 When I left home, I was 16. 335 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,400 I didn't realize at the time that I was grieving. 336 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,600 My dad passed away when I was 14, 337 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,280 and I just went into self-preservation mode. 338 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,760 Initially, when I left home, I moved in with a friend, 339 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,680 and then I bumped into Fred and Rose's daughter. 340 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,280 She said, "My parents have got a bedsit they're renting if you're interested." 341 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:32,080 So I was taken to see them. 342 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,800 They just seemed like a normal couple, just renting a place out. 343 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,080 They had a room to rent, and it was mine if I wanted it. 344 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,280 I felt happy. 345 00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,760 I had my own room. I had my own music. 346 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,360 I could put it on and nobody complained about it. 347 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,680 A fair few of the girls came from care homes. 348 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,440 There was a couple that were backpacking. 349 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,600 I think if you find yourself in a situation 350 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,440 that someone's gonna give you a hot meal and a bit of attention, 351 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,800 you're gonna be grateful, you're gonna be thankful. 352 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,040 Fred absolutely was besotted and adored Rose. 353 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,320 They were very loving to each other in front of everybody. 354 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,600 It didn't matter who was there. 355 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,920 They were constantly giving each other attention. 356 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,320 Rose definitely ran the roost. She was the one that shouted the orders. 357 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,240 I think I was probably a little bit frightened of her… 358 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,280 …because she seemed so stern. 359 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:36,720 It was just say hello to her, and have it over and done with. 360 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,560 You had to ask permission to go through the house. 361 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,800 A couple of times it was "No, no, no." 362 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,560 I can remember going out the back garden one day and Fred said, 363 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,640 "Be careful. I'm laying a patio." 364 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,480 I thought he was making it better for the children so they could play out there. 365 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,800 I first met Shirley Robinson when I was walking down the stairs 366 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,600 and she came out of her room. 367 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,240 I said, "Do you live here as well? Are you one of the family?" 368 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,800 "No, I'm a lodger." 369 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,520 She was just a year or so older than myself, 370 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,560 so she'd have been about 18. 371 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,480 She then explained that she was pregnant, and she said to me, "It's Fred's baby." 372 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,920 I went, "Yeah, whatever," not believing her, 373 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,880 thinking, "Maybe she's got a soft spot for the landlord," sort of thing. 374 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,280 We were in a lot of danger, but we couldn't see it. 375 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,120 Today, Heather's father, 52-year-old Frederick West, 376 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,720 appeared in court charged with killing her sometime between 377 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,560 May 28, 1987, and February 27 this year. 378 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,040 The search of the house and garden continued, 379 00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:07,920 although detectives refused to say what they're looking for. 380 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,720 Every time a bone is handed from one person to the next, 381 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,640 there must be a special exhibit label signed 382 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,720 so that everyone knows who's handed what to whom. 383 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,880 And I always remember picking up a couple more bones 384 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,120 and looking up at Superintendent Bennett and saying, 385 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,600 "Well, we've got three thighbones." 386 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,720 That's the first time they knew there was more than one. 387 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,520 Are there anybody else's bones there? 388 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,360 Could there be anybody else's bones in any part of the garden? 389 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,920 That's a peculiar question to ask, innit? 390 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,000 I ask lots of peculiar questions. 391 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,960 If there's anything else, Fred, I'm asking you. Tell us now. 392 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,720 I can't make out what you're on about. Others? 393 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,800 I mean, there's one. Heather. 394 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,440 Why did you find that so hard, then, just to say one? 395 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,760 - Is there anybody else? - No. 396 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,160 Because if anything else is there, we'll find it. 397 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,160 {\an8}Interviewing is all about how much power do you want to give the interviewee. 398 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,400 The power in the relationship was still with Fred 399 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,680 because we were still very much reliant on him providing us information. 400 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,200 Oh, boy. 401 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,040 - Hello. - That was good. 402 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,600 The more power you give, the more likelihood they're gonna talk. 403 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,560 But of course, there's a danger in that because Fred could say, "Well, actually, 404 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,360 I've given you all the information that I want to give you." 405 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,320 "This is what you've got to work with. I don't want to speak to you anymore." 406 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,240 We needed some help. 407 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:24,640 The detective rang me up to say, "Paul, we've got a problem. Can you help?" 408 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,400 "We have a man." 409 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,680 "He seems to be a warm, affable, straightforward sort of man, 410 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,320 and we have found in his garden 411 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:42,080 the remains of his daughter and, we think, another young woman, 412 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,600 and we don't know how to talk to him." 413 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,040 "Could you please come and help us to interview this man 414 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,080 in a way that allows him to explain what it is that happened?" 415 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,480 When I'm asked to help investigate any serious crime, 416 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,720 one of the key features that's of great importance to me 417 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,320 is to go to the scene. 418 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,680 {\an8}This is the front door of 25 Cromwell Street. 419 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,160 {\an8}This is inside the premises, with my back to the front door. 420 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,120 {\an8}I look through the eyes of a psychologist, 421 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,560 {\an8}not the eyes of a detective. 422 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,000 {\an8}I needed to know everything about him. 423 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:41,280 {\an8}I looked carefully at the furnishings, the knickknacks, if you like. 424 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,080 {\an8}I was particularly interested and informed 425 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,120 {\an8}by photo albums that I found in the drawer. 426 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,600 In my world, looking at family photographs allows me to see quite a lot 427 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:03,200 about the relationships between the people who are photographed and the photographer. 428 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,600 And what I didn't see 429 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,840 was any evidence of the usual family warmth pictures. 430 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,800 There was very little there that indicated a loving family domestic setting. 431 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:26,160 {\an8}At the middle floor in this house, there is a lounge that is set up, 432 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:31,240 {\an8}almost like the reception room of a seedy hotel. 433 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:39,320 {\an8}We go from this room, up a flight of stairs, to a bedroom area. 434 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,800 {\an8}On the other side, there's a hole in the wall, 435 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,320 {\an8}and out of that hole, there are cables coming. 436 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,840 {\an8}There are microphones and cameras that are run through into the four-poster bedroom, 437 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,080 {\an8}where films and listening can happen. 438 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,600 {\an8}It's clear that Fred had been able to adapt the building 439 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,200 {\an8}to his sexual pleasure, 440 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,160 and that was important. 441 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,000 But it was also clear 442 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,320 that understanding the relationship between Frederick and Rosemary West 443 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,080 would be essential to this whole case. 444 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,800 We're going to talk to you about a few bits and pieces this morning. 445 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:31,360 And so, if you can… cope with me jumping around a bit, okay? 446 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,600 - But if you can't, will you tell me? - Yeah. 447 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,680 When you were about 30, you meet Rose, is that right? 448 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,160 She was working in a cake shop in Cheltenham. 449 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,720 - She's how old then? - Fifteen and a half. 450 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,560 I knew Rose for three or four months, 451 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,960 and then I took her out on her 16th birthday. 452 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,400 We had a good night. A month later, she was pregnant. 453 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,920 So a month over her 16th birthday, she was in the family way. 454 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:04,240 {\an8}The police interviewers needed to allow Frederick West 455 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,800 the space to become himself, 456 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,640 and that meant allowing him to think 457 00:34:09,720 --> 00:34:13,560 that he and the interviewer were in a shared conversation. 458 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,280 He would be allowed to smoke. 459 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,480 He would be allowed to wax lyrically. 460 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,400 He would be allowed to relax. 461 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,320 Ask him open questions, and let him talk. 462 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,240 Anybody can say what they like about Rose, but she is a perfect mother. 463 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,960 Why didn't you ever tell her that you killed your daughter? 464 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,440 That's the reason why, innit. We both loved Heather. 465 00:34:39,720 --> 00:34:42,640 In another part of your garden, Fred, 466 00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:47,000 the police have found another human bone. 467 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,240 Have you any knowledge where this other bone might've come from? 468 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:58,440 Yeah. 469 00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:02,640 Shirley… 470 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:05,640 Robinson. 471 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,840 The girl who caused the problem. 472 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,440 {\an8}And we just, bit by bit, got very friendly with each other. 473 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:22,840 {\an8}We started talking about, 474 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,200 {\an8}"When we're ready to move out of here, we'll move out together, 475 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,200 and we'll have a place where we can live, and you can bring the baby up there." 476 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,800 That was our… that was our aim. 477 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,200 One night I heard a child screaming and crying. 478 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,440 It was, "Stop it, Daddy. Stop it, Daddy." 479 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,040 Very, very high-pitched. 480 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,320 So I pushed it to the back of my mind. 481 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,480 Then a few nights later, I heard the same thing. 482 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,440 The third time, it was much clearer. 483 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,960 That's when I made my decision to leave. 484 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,560 I did think of going to see somebody, but I didn't know who to talk to 485 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,440 because I didn't think the police'd believe me. 486 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:11,280 I was a runaway. 487 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,680 You know, I was 17 by then. 488 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,520 It would have been a waste of my time, I thought. 489 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,920 We were having an affair… behind Rose. 490 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:27,440 Shirley fell pregnant. 491 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,560 At the time Shirley died, she was carrying your child? 492 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:32,640 Yeah. 493 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,000 I took Rose into hospital because Rose was in labor. 494 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,160 Okay. 495 00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:50,040 I came back, and Shirley said, "You're taking me down to Bristol now." 496 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,840 And I said, "I can't. I got to go back to Rose." 497 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,720 She said, "I'm going down to tell Rose that this is yours." 498 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,840 I turned round and smacked her in the jaw. 499 00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,800 She went straight on the floor. 500 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,120 Then I went and got a piece of flex and tied it round her neck. 501 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:04,800 Okay. 502 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,960 You said to me earlier that you dismembered her the same as Heather was. 503 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,320 I probably did. 504 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,600 I was looking at her body, and I thought, "Where's this gonna end?" 505 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,680 And by this time, I am realizing that that is three. 506 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:22,840 Two. 507 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,880 Sorry, that's two. Not three. 508 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,120 He suddenly thinks, "Oh, what have I said?" 509 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,800 These lapses in the cognitive control of the story 510 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,880 help the interviewer to see the limits of this man's preparedness, 511 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:42,080 and that's one of the reasons 512 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,280 that the police are able to go a little bit further 513 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,640 and to unwrap what's really happened. 514 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,440 You said to Mr. Ogden 515 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,640 you wanted to tell him about further matters. 516 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:55,560 Yeah. 517 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,680 - Is that right? - Right. 518 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,040 What do you want to tell us, Fred? 519 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,960 Just where the three are. 520 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,040 Now, when you say "the three," 521 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,240 can you just remind me of who we're talking about? 522 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,720 Well, Heather, Shirley, and the other girl I don't know. 523 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,560 - Who is the third? - I don't know. 524 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,000 What did you call her? 525 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,360 Nothing. I don't recall her name at all. 526 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,080 What can we refer to her as now? 527 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,240 Shirley's mate. I mean, that's all I… 528 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,080 Shirley's mate. Okay. 529 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,040 We all realized that we were 530 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,440 in a bizarre and unique set of circumstances. 531 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,880 For example, "Shirley's mate." This is somebody that he's murdered, 532 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,800 uh, whose name he doesn't even know. 533 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,960 I'm the taller one. Alison is the shorter one. 534 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:02,320 Were you guys close? 535 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,280 Yeah. Yeah. 536 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,040 We didn't have a great childhood. Our parents were strict. 537 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,720 I had in my head, "When I'm 18, I can leave home." 538 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:15,040 "Follow the rules, put up with it." 539 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,360 Alison didn't. 540 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:19,440 She rebelled. 541 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,640 She'd be out till 1:00 in the morning, then our parents would phone the police 542 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:27,080 and then they'd go and find her, or she'd been by a friend, at a friend's, 543 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,560 and hadn't come home, that sort of thing. 544 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:32,200 All of a sudden, yeah, the police have been too much. 545 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,440 Yeah, you get told that she's, uh, being put into care. 546 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,320 She's hurt, she's crying, she's upset, she wants to come home and, yeah, 547 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,520 there's nothing you can do about it. 548 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,200 She got moved then to Gloucester. 549 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,600 I think that was when, yeah, she was about 16. 550 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,040 A few months later, we got told by social services that Alison had run away. 551 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,160 In '79, my mother received a letter. 552 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,560 "I am at present living with a very homely family, 553 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,560 and I look after their children and do some of their housework." 554 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,400 "They know that I was in care 555 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,200 and are more than willing to help me on my feet." 556 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,360 "We all get on great together and I have readily accepted them as a second family." 557 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,040 "But please note, you shall, are, and always will be my own family." 558 00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:28,680 "I just wanted to let you know I'm safe 559 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,000 and shall continue to write to let you know how I'm doing." 560 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,320 "One thing I don't want anyone to do is to worry about me." 561 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,840 "I love and miss you all. Please believe that." 562 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,000 "Until I write again, take care of yourselves." 563 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:44,880 "All my fondest love, Alison." 564 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:50,120 May 26, 1979. 565 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,000 May 26, 1979, she wrote that. 566 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,440 Once you know everything, 567 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,800 you think of that letter, and it's like, 568 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,120 she was so taken in with how loving they were… 569 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,760 what a nice family they seemed to be. 570 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:24,960 {\an8}Stay on this side. 571 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,120 {\an8}Right, Fred. What I want you to do is, can you show me, first of all, 572 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,760 {\an8}where you buried Shirley's friend? 573 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:44,840 {\an8}Right by that. 574 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,000 {\an8}Right in the middle of this, between the two walls? 575 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:51,760 {\an8}Okay. 576 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:53,840 {\an8}Just leave it there. 577 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,960 {\an8}And now can you tell us where you buried Shirley Robinson? 578 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,320 {\an8}By that slab there. 579 00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:07,040 {\an8}- Which one, Fred? - Which one? 580 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:08,000 {\an8}That one. 581 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,720 {\an8}This one here? The one right in the corner? 582 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:11,640 {\an8}Yeah. 583 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:20,120 {\an8}You said it was level with that new extension post. 584 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,000 {\an8}You also said, Fred, yesterday, that you thought that you saw her… 585 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,520 {\an8}- Yeah. - …last time we were here. 586 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,200 {\an8}- Right. - There was a big hole in there last time. 587 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,280 {\an8}Or that was higher up. 588 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,280 {\an8}And that post indicates the position 589 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,200 {\an8}where Mr. West has indicated he's buried one of the bodies. 590 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,840 {\an8}Whilst you're here, is there anything else that you want to look at? 591 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,000 {\an8}We don't want to keep coming back here with you. 592 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,800 {\an8}That's it. 593 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,400 {\an8}No. 594 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,880 {\an8}- You sure? - Yes. 595 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,400 {\an8}You can take it all apart, there ain't nothing else. 596 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,360 {\an8}For me, personally, it was a surreal moment. 597 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,840 {\an8}You're there face to face with a man 598 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,960 {\an8}who is telling you how he has killed a lot of women, basically. 599 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,000 {\an8}I do actually recall driving home and thinking, 600 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,040 I just cannot believe this is going on. 601 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,000 In Gloucester, of all places, I can't believe this is happening. 602 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,680 In those days, it was the crime reporter's job every morning at 9:00 603 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,560 to go down to the central police station, 604 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,600 where you'd meet the duty inspector and he would give you a briefing. 605 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,040 But that morning I went in, 606 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,880 and I was told that they'd found two more bodies. 607 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:47,680 And that came totally out of the blue. It was totally shocking. 608 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,000 I left the police station. My heart was pounding. 609 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,040 And it's that feeling of knowing something that no one else does, 610 00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:01,280 and you're about to change everyone's perception of what's going on. 611 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,040 I practically sprinted back to the office to make it in time 612 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,160 to write up the story for that day's paper. 613 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,520 And we knew that as soon as that paper hit the streets, 614 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,640 the national newspaper reporters would be down, 615 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:18,360 because it was no longer a domestic murder. 616 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:19,800 It was something much, much bigger. 617 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,000 The crowd grows bigger with every new development. 618 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,960 But morbid fascination in the secrets of number 25 Cromwell Street 619 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,960 spreads far beyond this close-knit neighborhood. 620 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,320 There was almost a carnival atmosphere. 621 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,880 You know, you had TV reporters doing pieces to camera. 622 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,160 People leaning out windows, watching what was going on. 623 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,560 There were rumors that there was a whole news desk, 624 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,080 plus reporters, holed up in a hotel in Gloucester. 625 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,400 The whole place was feeling quite swamped by the national media. 626 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,760 I was a staff reporter for The Sunday Mirror in London, 627 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,160 national newspaper. 628 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:14,400 We had millions of readers, and they enjoyed reading about the royal family, 629 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,160 so this was the era of Princess Diana and Fergie. 630 00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:20,960 Politicians doing things they shouldn't do. That sort of thing. 631 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,080 You're dealing in stories that are sensational. 632 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,360 But the work was fun, and dare I say it, I was quite good at it. 633 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,840 I mean, I was young and full of energy. 634 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:40,880 A call came through from Gloucester, 635 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,960 and I was given the job of speaking to this caller 636 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,160 who had inside information, they said, 637 00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:50,960 about the murder inquiry ongoing in Gloucester. 638 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,240 My news desk said, "Howard, drive to Gloucester." 639 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,000 A place I'd never been to in my life, didn't know where it was, 640 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,560 didn't know how to get there, had to look on the map. 641 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,160 And for the first time in my life, I drive into Gloucester. 642 00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:06,040 The headlines, police are still searching the garden 643 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,800 of 25 Cromwell Street in Gloucester's city center. 644 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,320 Television crews, reporters, and sightseers 645 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,560 have been gathering on the street for most of the morning. 646 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,200 Every national paper is there in strength. 647 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,280 You'd turn a corner, and you see someone you know from London 648 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,800 trying to speak to somebody on the quiet. 649 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,320 The press en masse is called "the pack" because they hunt like dogs in a pack. 650 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,640 It's a game, and it's also your job to get the story before they do. 651 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,640 You can't do what everyone else is doing. 652 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:41,520 You have to do your own thing, 653 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,880 and the thing you're looking for is an exclusive. 654 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,800 They worked into the night at 25 Cromwell Street, 655 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,160 digging methodically and urgently, 656 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:01,560 fearful, almost, of what they might find. 657 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,280 Frederick West has already been charged with the murder of his daughter. 658 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,000 Tonight he was charged with two others, including that of a former lodger. 659 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,240 The police believe she was Shirley Robinson, an 18-year-old, 660 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,640 who was heavily pregnant when she died. 661 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,400 A neighbor knocked on the door and said, "Watch the news." 662 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,000 It was just an absolute… 663 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,400 oh, I don't know, mind-blowing sort of thing. 664 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,520 I tried not to listen to it. 665 00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,320 I tried to just switch off. 666 00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,600 All I can remember them saying about Shirley, 667 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,800 um, is that she was carrying Fred's baby, and he disposed of the baby as well. 668 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:59,120 Whenever I think of Shirley, it hurts. But seeing her face again, it's… 669 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,200 She was there when I needed a friend. 670 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,440 She should still be here now. 671 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:21,560 You think, "Why has Alison never got in touch?" 672 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,200 That's one thing I could never understand, that she never got in touch with me. 673 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:28,800 You've heard these people talking that they've seen her. 674 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:32,600 You know, you're fighting with yourself 'cause you want to believe these people, 675 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,000 but at the same time, 676 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:37,120 something's telling you that they haven't seen her. 677 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:41,080 You want Alison to be there, but you just want her to be with you. 678 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,960 And I'm the big sister. 679 00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:00,000 So here I am, Mr. One-Man-Band, 680 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:06,040 and your own life, separate from your professional life, goes on. 681 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,600 I continue to deal with concerns of the media, 682 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:12,920 trying to get in touch, 683 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,640 my partner, who's concerned about everything that was occurring, 684 00:49:17,720 --> 00:49:20,600 and all this has to be dealt with 685 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,920 at the same time as dealing with these horrendous circumstances. 686 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,480 Scott Canavan was a clerk that I took on to train up. 687 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,800 He struck me as a streetwise individual, 688 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,120 and I felt that he would be a great asset, um, to me. 689 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,040 Howard said that he had a murder case and wanted me in on it. 690 00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:53,480 I'd only worked as a clerk for a month, you know, um, let alone on a murder case. 691 00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,720 It was almost like hearing somebody reading you a story. 692 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,760 You know, it was hard to picture, but the further the case went on, 693 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,080 the more realistic it became. 694 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:23,080 A difficult part of this inquiry for me 695 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,000 was helping the police to cross a threshold. 696 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:34,160 He has been stoutly denying that there is anything more wrong 697 00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:37,320 other than the fact that he mishandled these terrible deaths 698 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,040 of the young women in the garden. 699 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:46,640 So the question was, well, why are these people buried in the garden? 700 00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:49,480 And my answer is that because the house is already full, 701 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,280 and that's why it's overflowed into the garden. 702 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:58,360 The strategy that I put forward for the police at this stage 703 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,880 was to tell him clearly, in colorful language, 704 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,040 that we are now going to dig up floors in the house. 705 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,440 Most importantly, we're going to start digging in the cellar. 706 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:13,600 If you do that, he will suddenly start remembering different possibilities. 707 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,080 - Name? - Frederick Walter Stephen West. 708 00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,120 - Legal representative? - Scott Canavan. 709 00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:26,040 Right, I think it's only right to tell you that, um… 710 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,560 the police are actively involved in 711 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:32,760 digging up the rest of your house. 712 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:34,800 - Are you aware of that? - No. 713 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,040 How do you mean? 714 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,280 - Literally. - Floors? 715 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,840 - Yes. The whole lot. - Concrete's coming up? 716 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,200 Yes. The whole lot. The floor in the house. 717 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,000 The conservatory's being demolished, 718 00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:48,160 and they do intend to certainly dig up the whole of the cellar. 719 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,320 You'll have the house down. There's no footings underneath. 720 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,160 Well, I'm sure the police are fully insured. 721 00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:56,560 and whatever for the future, 722 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,000 but at the moment we're inquiring into serious matters, 723 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,720 of missing girls and missing people. 724 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,040 And bearing in mind what has happened already in 25 Cromwell Street, 725 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,360 it would be totally wrong of us 726 00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,920 to not continue the investigation vigorously. 727 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,000 - Do you want to say anything else at all? - No. 728 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,080 Hazel stopped the interview, and the officers left, 729 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,880 and we went into another room. 730 00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,600 I just said to Fred, "Look, you know, enough's enough." 731 00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,520 "If there's more, then you've got to tell them there's more." 732 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,840 And he said, "No, I've told you everything." 733 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,000 "And there's not. There's not any more." 734 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,680 And I said, "Well, you know, I don't believe you." 735 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,600 Fred then went silent for about two minutes. 736 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,840 Sort of looking into oblivion. 737 00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,440 And I sort of asked him again, I said, "Fred, is there any more bodies?" 738 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,320 And his words were, "There's a fucking load more." 739 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,000 I left the police station and went to phone my boss, Howard Ogden 740 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:11,000 because I just didn't have a clue what to do in that sort of situation. 741 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:18,960 My concern was to get Fred's admission to Superintendent Bennett 742 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,560 as soon as possible. 743 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,960 I recollect that I said, "I think you'd better sit down." 744 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,160 He was clearly shocked about something, 745 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:30,000 and he had this piece of paper in his hand. 746 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,200 "The note said, I, Frederick West, wish to admit 747 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,840 to an approx nine further killings." 748 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,240 It was very difficult to come to terms with 749 00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,320 what we were faced with in those few moments. 750 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,920 John Bennett brought us all in and explained to us 751 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,120 that Fred had confessed to another series of killings, 752 00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,120 and that was one of those heart-stopping moments, 753 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,080 as the realization of what we were facing started to dawn on us. 754 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:09,920 If you were going to murder people and bury them in such small property, 755 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,760 then how can you say you didn't know? 756 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,200 Rose must have known. 757 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,280 The burning question, the crucial question was, 758 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,840 how much she was involved. 759 00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:32,440 When they arrested me, I was devastated, literally. 760 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,640 I was crawling around the police station. 761 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,160 I didn't know what was happening. I was just crying. 762 00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:40,200 It's just all burning, you know? 763 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,640 He's telling her everything. 764 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,000 It won't make any difference. 765 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:49,680 You'll never get a confession for something I haven't done.