1 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:26,320 What I'm concerned about, Fred, is that you are gonna keep quiet 2 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:27,800 because you think, 3 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,800 or you are frightened to death it would implicate Rose. 4 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:32,480 Rubbish. 5 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,160 Was she ever in the house when you were killing somebody? 6 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,920 - No. - Or cutting them up? 7 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,720 - No. - Never once? 8 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:48,120 No. She knew nothing because I am sure of one thing. 9 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,720 If she'd have known, she'd have been the first to report me. 10 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:54,240 Turn it off. 11 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,120 Cromwell Street has become a magnet 12 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,320 for the sympathetic, the shocked, and the downright curious. 13 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,040 It's still giving up its grisly secrets, 14 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,920 but already it's one of the most infamous addresses in Britain. 15 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,640 Detectives, who've unearthed three bodies in the garden, 16 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,800 don't expect to find any more there. 17 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,800 The search for bodies has now switched to inside the house, 18 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,160 as, piece by piece, 25 Cromwell Street is torn apart. 19 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,240 The case has developed 20 00:01:54,120 --> 00:02:01,000 from a missing person to three bodies in a garden, 21 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,880 and now, suddenly, 22 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:09,280 {\an8}this acknowledgement is made of nine more victims. 23 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,440 So the police now have to cope with a multiple murder inquiry. 24 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,760 Fred confessed to a series of killings. 25 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,040 So from that point of view, it wasn't a complicated investigation, 26 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,520 it wasn't complex. 27 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,160 The difficulties we had was, one, identifying the victims, 28 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,960 and two, what to do about Rose. 29 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,440 You can only work with the evidence that you've got. 30 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,440 Rose was in a safe house with the children, Mae and Stephen, 31 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:48,160 where she spent the time whilst we were excavating 25 Cromwell Street. 32 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,080 There were a lot of listening devices throughout the premises, 33 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:54,840 and the intention would have been 34 00:02:54,920 --> 00:03:00,760 to elicit, covertly, some admissions to what Rose knew, 35 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,080 gathering evidence which should directly implicate her in any of the murders. 36 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,880 I thought Dad was a very sick man. 37 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,520 And it's come out, he is a very sick man. 38 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,720 And the worst liar I ever could have dreamed of. 39 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,720 But nobody could have known. 40 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,360 She was devastated, 41 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:32,320 {\an8}quite clearly distressed, um, and shocked. 42 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,280 She denies she knew anything about the bodies. 43 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:36,920 - Is that correct? - Yes, she does. 44 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,800 What about knowledge of the killings? 45 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:41,880 - She totally denies that? - Yes, she does. 46 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,120 Whilst there was this huge shadow on Rose West, 47 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,080 {\an8}clear instructions to me were that 48 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,600 {\an8}she had got into a relationship with Fred when she was still a young girl, 16. 49 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,120 He'd always been the dominant older party. 50 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,000 He'd manipulated her. 51 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,080 She'd been totally hoodwinked. 52 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,760 I mean, if I got near the bastard now, 53 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:12,600 I'd put me hands round his throat. 54 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,840 This is something you don't forgive. 55 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,640 I'd never forgive that. You don't forgive that. 56 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,160 You never forget it. 57 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,400 Although she talked a lot in the safe house, 58 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,680 there was no new information. 59 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,560 We were getting nothing, absolutely nothing. 60 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:35,600 Fred was at Gloucester Police Station 61 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,920 for the murder of his daughter Heather. 62 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,880 I used to spend quite a lot of time with Fred in the morning 63 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,800 {\an8}before, um, Scott or Howard turned up. 64 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,840 {\an8}So, you know, we had chance to talk quite a lot. 65 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,840 And he said, "The other girls that I've talked about before, 66 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,280 they're in the cellar." 67 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,880 So I had some paper, and he drew the diagram of the cellar, 68 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,600 and he sort of pinpointed where each of the bodies were. 69 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,640 Because he couldn't remember what the names were, I just numbered them. 70 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,160 Police are concentrating the search in the cellar area. 71 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,720 This follows a day's scanning using imaging technology. 72 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,240 This highly sensitive equipment 73 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,480 allows them to see into walls and underneath floors, 74 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,840 shadows on the monitor revealing any object encased in bricks or concrete. 75 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,880 {\an8}Just a quick shot of the, uh, threshold to this far room. 76 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,840 {\an8}See the original access to the basement. 77 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,080 {\an8}Staircase and a grille. 78 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,800 {\an8}The cellar was accessible down some fairly steep stairs. 79 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,480 {\an8}There's another room off on the side there. 80 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,160 {\an8}It was clear that the kids had used it as a den at some stage 81 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,560 because there was pictures on the wall. 82 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:04,320 But it was cold, it was dank, 83 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,960 {\an8}it was particularly smelly because Fred had split sewage pipes. 84 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:15,520 We went to the cellar at Cromwell Street 85 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,160 with a view to guide the officers to then dig. 86 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,040 Fred came in the back way because of the press, 87 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,080 and then they brought us into the basement. 88 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,400 {\an8}We're currently in the basement of the premises. 89 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:40,520 The people present are Mr. Frederick Walter Stephen West, 90 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,440 accompanied by Mr. Howard Ogden, Mr. Scott Canavan, 91 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,920 and Mrs. Janet Leach, um, appropriate adult. 92 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,480 Officers present, Detective Chief Inspector Law, DC Savage. 93 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,480 - Is there anything in here that we've… - Along that line, that line there. 94 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,040 Okay, under here. 95 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,680 So it's just where you're standing then, Fred, yeah? 96 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,800 She's there, or somewhere just on the edge of there. 97 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,600 I don't think it's quite far over as that, but just on the edge of there somewhere. 98 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:16,520 Right. 99 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:18,560 It was strange. 100 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,280 I mean, because as he talked, everything was so matter-of-fact. 101 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,680 You know, he, he'd get a little bit upset, 102 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,280 but then compose himself very quickly and change, 103 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:34,320 you know, it was like his personalities were like two different people. You know? 104 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:42,120 One of the officers asked him to choose a spray can 105 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:48,000 to mark where the bodies were, which had been drawn on the diagram. 106 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,400 He sort of marked the floors, uh, quite near to the chimney breasts. 107 00:07:58,800 --> 00:07:59,960 It's across there. 108 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:01,960 And who is that? 109 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:03,480 That's the second girl. 110 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:10,240 I just hated the man, 111 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:15,760 but I couldn't afford to let any of my feelings sort of come out, 112 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,600 because he seemed to sense that. 113 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,080 So then the trust wouldn't have been there. 114 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,320 I'd say that's probably where it came in. 115 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,720 He said, like, all the children slept down there. 116 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,800 It was really dark and damp. 117 00:08:33,560 --> 00:08:36,040 The smell, it was awful. It was just… 118 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,200 I just… 119 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:42,800 I could smell it. 120 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,160 When I went to sleep at night, I could smell it. 121 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,600 Fred, is there anybody else in here? 122 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:49,520 No. 123 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:50,920 Are you sure? 124 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,000 You realize all this will come up, don't you? 125 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,080 Yeah. Well, I mean, what's one more? 126 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:07,760 Concrete from the cellar 127 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,320 of 25 Cromwell Street was removed from the house 128 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,680 as police continue their hunt for more bodies. 129 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,320 Today they announced that three more sets of human remains had now been found. 130 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:20,840 These were found in the cellar area, 131 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:25,600 and this brings the total in Cromwell Street to six. 132 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,960 The bodies are believed to be those of women as yet unidentified. 133 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:32,840 For the first week, 134 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,480 we were hearing about victims' remains being found. 135 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:40,560 With the discovery of each new body comes the task of identification. 136 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,520 Revelations in Gloucester have aroused fears 137 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,880 of thousands of people who have missing relatives or friends. 138 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,560 We knew just from a local police force, Gloucestershire, 139 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,720 that we had certain people missing on our books. 140 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,560 But then we expanded that out to our neighboring counties, 141 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,440 neighboring police forces. 142 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,520 We had thousands of calls. 143 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,160 The Missing Persons Bureau in London 144 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,040 has from the outset of this investigation 145 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,720 been of considerable assistance to us. 146 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:18,080 We would hope that persons who have for some reason distanced themselves 147 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:19,640 from their relatives or friends, 148 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,280 that they can make contact with their relatives 149 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,240 or contact with the Missing Persons Bureau and establish their safety. 150 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,160 There was a number coming along the bottom of the screen, so I rang it. 151 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,200 And then within an hour or two, 152 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,920 this detective came to my door and said to me, 153 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,560 "Can you explain why you think your sister Juanita is one of those?" 154 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,240 I said, "I've just got this feeling." 155 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:02,480 I was about 15 when Juanita was last known of. 156 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,160 {\an8}The last time I'd spoke to Juanita, 157 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,360 she'd been kicked out of home because she was so naughty. 158 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,920 Well, she was Juanita. 159 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,800 I was in bed asleep, and I heard these stones being thrown at the window. 160 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,320 So I looked out, it was her, so I let her in. 161 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,760 And I said, "What happened last night?" 162 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,960 And she said, "Oh, Mum and them wouldn't let me in." 163 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,080 I said, "Well, you know the window will always be open for you." 164 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,080 She said, "Yeah, and you've got to remember 165 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:39,920 that I'll always be there for you." 166 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,360 "No matter what or no matter when." 167 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:43,960 "Just find me." 168 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:57,960 As a journalist, you want a story that's got legs, 169 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:59,240 as they say in journalism, 170 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,240 i.e. a story that's going to keep going. 171 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,760 And the West case had that quality. 172 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,600 It's a bit like a jigsaw puzzle. 173 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:12,600 You have some of the pieces and, you know, you do the border. 174 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,280 And some pieces join up, but there are missing pieces. 175 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,480 And early on, one of the pieces, 176 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:21,680 certainly that I tried to put in place, was how did Fred and Rose meet? 177 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,840 And the truth was slightly obscure. 178 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,880 But essentially, in 1969, Rose was a 15-year-old schoolgirl. 179 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,400 Fred West was a 27-year-old man. 180 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,040 And somehow he chatted her up and they bonded. 181 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,360 And almost immediately, she becomes pregnant with Heather. 182 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:47,560 I trained Rose… 183 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,960 …to what I wanted. 184 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,400 That is why our marriage worked out so well. 185 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,720 For a simple reason, Rose had had no wild life. 186 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,360 She just blended into my way of living. 187 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,720 Rose would act under your instruction? 188 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:01,680 Yes. 189 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,120 - Well, yeah. Yes. - To be fair to Rose. 190 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,040 {\an8}Rose West was complex. Her relationship with Fred was complex. 191 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,560 Rose was bringing up a family, but at the same time, 192 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,680 Fred was also sending her out with these other men. 193 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,200 Statements that I've read, Mr. West, from people who know you… 194 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,080 This chap says he learned about your wife's sexual habits through you. 195 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,720 How she was a prostitute at the house. 196 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,120 {\an8}I probed on that. She said, "Well, I did it because Fred made me do it." 197 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,680 I was in love with your father. 198 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,720 Whenever I made love with your father, that was it for me. 199 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:57,560 But I had to go out with this bloke I didn't like and climb into his bed 200 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,240 and make love all night and come home in the morning. 201 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,040 One of the big talking points of the West case is, 202 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,680 who was in control? 203 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,160 I think certainly when they first met, 204 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,800 Fred must have been the dominant partner. 205 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,240 He had to have been. 206 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,600 He had much, much more life experience. 207 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:20,800 I thought Fred must have bewitched her, 208 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,800 and she must have gone along with Fred's idea of what was okay, 209 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:27,120 sexually and otherwise. 210 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,880 My mum tells me, "Get an older man." 211 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,480 "He'll look after you. He's had his life. He's had his flings." 212 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,120 "You know, you'll be all right." 213 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:41,040 I mean, and I'm with this man. I am almost completely brainwashed. 214 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,200 You know, and I am doing what he says. 215 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,680 Now, how much he coerced her is really unknown. 216 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,920 As the investigation progressed, 217 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,880 the focus then was to go to speak to people 218 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,240 who would have knowledge and understanding of Fred and Rose. 219 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,000 What did you know about Fred and Rose's lifestyle? 220 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,960 Were you aware of any activities that were going on at the premises? 221 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,400 At that time, the house would be packed. 222 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,760 Right. I want to talk first of all, Mr. West, 223 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,240 about a statement of evidence that we've received 224 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,880 from a lady called Elizabeth Agius. 225 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,120 Rose started telling me about her personal life. 226 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,280 How did I feel about it, by she was a prostitute? 227 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:39,280 Um… 228 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,400 I just told her it was her business. It was nothing to do with me. 229 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,920 {\an8}She did go into details that she had, like, 230 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,440 {\an8}microphones or something in the bedroom. 231 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,800 {\an8}Because if she ever had, uh, clients there, 232 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,760 {\an8}Fred was always on the opposite side, into the next room. 233 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,600 {\an8}And, um, he likes to listen to things like that. 234 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,080 {\an8}But their life, 235 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,000 it was up to them to whatever I thought turned them on. 236 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,120 And, you know, I never took no notice, really. 237 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,960 Rose came across, in her early days, 238 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,400 as somebody who was sweet, vulnerable, gullible. 239 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,960 The more we looked into her, the more devious she appears to have come. 240 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,720 Fred and Rose, though a couple, was clearly engaged in activities 241 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,360 which we would consider not the social norm. 242 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,040 Has she been happy to go along with this? 243 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,880 Well, all I can say is that for that 23 years we've been together. 244 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,120 I mean, do you think she would have stayed? 245 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,600 She thinks just as much of me as I do of her. 246 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,000 {\an8}You had these underlying, sordid activities 247 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,280 {\an8}that were constantly going on at 25 Cromwell Street, 248 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,040 {\an8}which people were aware of, 249 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,160 but for whatever reason chose not 250 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,400 to bring it to the attention of the police. 251 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,800 This lady says when she was shown around Cromwell Street, 252 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,080 she was shown a trapdoor which led to the cellar. 253 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,240 We went down there, 254 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,560 and Fred said, um, he wasn't sure what to make of this yet. 255 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,320 He said, "I don't know whether to make it a playing area for the children." 256 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,160 Or he nudged me and he used to say, 257 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,680 {\an8}"Or else I could make this into my torture room, 258 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,520 {\an8}and just think," he said, 259 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,560 {\an8}"what I could do to you down here," he said. 260 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,960 {\an8}"Nobody would hear me," he said, "'cause I'd make it soundproof." 261 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,000 - Did you consider going to police? - No. 262 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,000 What they did was their business. 263 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:46,120 I accepted them as they are, so long as I wasn't involved in anything. 264 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,480 {\an8}It was extremely surprising to see 265 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,640 {\an8}that this activity could take place 266 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,400 {\an8}in a house in the middle of the town center. 267 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,960 {\an8}But the burning question, the crucial question was, 268 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,080 {\an8}what were the victims doing in 25 Cromwell Street? 269 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,720 How did they get there? 270 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,560 The conversation then got round to the fact that Fred used to go out 271 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,360 looking for young girls who were hitchhiking or thumbing lifts. 272 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,680 She says that when she asked why you did it, 273 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,080 "Fred said that he liked to pick up young women 274 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,040 to get them back to lodge with them." 275 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:41,160 "He said he could get them into prostitution, 276 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,920 and he liked them to be aged between 15 to 17 if possible." 277 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,360 What was going through my head at the time was, 278 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,000 "This is great, this is a breakthrough, great evidence." 279 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,960 A key feature of Fred's strategy 280 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,680 was simply to go cruising and to look for a victim of opportunity, 281 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,560 someone who seemed vulnerable. 282 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:19,440 But we also realized 283 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,520 it wasn't just people living in 25 Cromwell Street that went missing. 284 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,760 These victims were from all over the country. 285 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:35,080 250,000 people go missing in Britain every year. 286 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,120 The majority return home within a few days. 287 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,880 But around 3,000 vanish without trace. 288 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,560 What has happened to Lucy Partington? 289 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,680 Has she simply vanished for reasons which her parents aren't aware? 290 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,760 Lucy's bus was ten minutes late leaving the center of Cheltenham 291 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,320 and didn't arrive at the stop on Evesham Road until half past ten. 292 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,200 But by then, the 21-year-old student had vanished, 293 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,560 and there's been no trace of her ever since. 294 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,120 She was four years younger than me, 295 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,000 and, um, I was rather the bossy older sister. 296 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,000 We were all together at Christmas at my mum's house. 297 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,560 One of my brothers gave Lucy a lift to her friend Helen's 298 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,600 and offered to pick her up afterwards, 299 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,000 and she said, "No, it's fine. I'll get the bus." 300 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,600 And was never seen again. 301 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,560 What do you think has happened to your daughter? 302 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,040 Well, I don't know. 303 00:20:58,120 --> 00:20:59,840 A very difficult question. 304 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,360 You know, I think that whatever has happened to her was against her will. 305 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,520 I'm quite convinced myself that she meant to catch that bus. 306 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,000 I don't think she would have accepted a lift. 307 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,040 I don't think it would have been in character with her. 308 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,280 The police searched. They dragged the lake by the bus stop. 309 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,920 They put up notices of missing person, 310 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,760 and nothing was found. 311 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,600 {\an8}I would like this thing put to bed, as they say in journalist terms. 312 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,960 {\an8}Yeah, I would like the thing… Have it finished. If she is dead, let's… 313 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,720 put an end to it. Let's have a funeral. 314 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,680 The whole thing is so uncertain, isn't it, at the moment. 315 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,400 And I would like to know what happened to her. 316 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,120 I don't like to think that I shall die without ever knowing what happened to her. 317 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:58,640 - Thank you very much. - Okay. 318 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,720 I first heard about Cromwell Street when I was at work. 319 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:08,960 We just felt very restless, 320 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,680 and it was, you know, very disturbing that all this was going on. 321 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,080 Maybe it was just because this was about missing people. 322 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,320 And this was about bodies being found, 323 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,320 and it wasn't very far from where Lucy disappeared. 324 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,160 I just remember saying to my mum around that time, 325 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,680 "I think it's going to be better to know than not to know." 326 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,480 And my mum said, "I'm not so sure about that." 327 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,280 I never actually ever knew their names. 328 00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:59,720 I didn't want to know or make up a name, whatever it was. 329 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,560 No? What about Lucy? 330 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,240 She was well publicized as a missing girl. 331 00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:10,560 The thing is, all these are so mixed up in my mind, 332 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,840 I haven't got a clue which is which. 333 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,680 You put them there, didn't you? 334 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,880 - Don't know whether you put them there? - No. 335 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,120 - Buried these people? - Yeah, buried the people. 336 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,880 But I mean, I didn't… It was done quick and a long time ago. 337 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,760 He did know a couple of names, but some were strangers. 338 00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:40,400 Which, to me, put a different light on Fred at that point. 339 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,360 {\an8}I started to imagine then 340 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,120 {\an8}what these poor victims had actually gone through before they died. 341 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,160 {\an8}Fred, you've got that awful smirk on your face again. 342 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,520 That's worrying me. 343 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,920 And I need to know we're not going into another world now. 344 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,840 No. But, I mean, every girl I picked up, I didn't put in the basement. 345 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,400 Where did you put them? 346 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,720 I dropped them off where they wanted to go. 347 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:11,640 In the early interviews, 348 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,360 what you see is a cunning man who's living in a fantasy. 349 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,120 I mean, each one was their own kinky sex, that's all it was. 350 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,280 I mean, that's why you probably find it hard. 351 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,880 It was what they… their thing that they wanted to try, do. 352 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,400 So far as Fred is concerned, 353 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,480 his approach is largely entirely matter-of-fact. 354 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:44,840 {\an8}Really concerned about himself as opposed to the deceased. 355 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,760 It was just this urge at the time when they… they upset me, 356 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,120 that I went for 'em. 357 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,520 And the whole fear, 358 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,120 and this is something that we've got to go into, 359 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,080 was that the biggest fear that was in me, 360 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,720 was Rose finding out that I was messing with other women. 361 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:16,000 Frederick West seems unmoved by the fact that these people are dead. 362 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:21,160 And what we see are the hallmarks of the sadistic sexual psychopath. 363 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,120 More human remains have been found 364 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,640 at the house in Gloucester being searched by police. 365 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,920 The latest discovery in the cellar of the house 366 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,680 brings to nine the number of bodies found at the home of Frederick West. 367 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,440 The whole thing now, you've got them all. 368 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,640 Yeah. 369 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,320 So there ain't no more in the basement. 370 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,760 When the police excavation on Cromwell Street stopped… 371 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,720 …they were bringing the victim remains out. 372 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,320 Fleet Street is down there, BBC is down there, 373 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,080 the TV, Sky News, CNN, Canadian television, French television. 374 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,360 They're all there because victims are being brought out in black boxes. 375 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:19,920 It goes around the world. 376 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,240 When the victims' remains were all excavated, 377 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,400 and you saw the conditions in which those remains were coming up, 378 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,720 you saw they were dismembered, you saw evidence 379 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,840 that they had been taped and bound and gagged, 380 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,960 you start to think, how could anybody do that? 381 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,640 And then you think how those kids must have suffered 382 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,000 immediately before their death. 383 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,080 For every victim that we identified, 384 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,400 there would have been 10, 20, 30 names that remained missing 385 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,160 and were never found. 386 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,800 Eventually, we were able to put a name to all the victims. 387 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,720 25 Cromwell Street was the burial ground 388 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,000 for a total of nine young women. 389 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,120 {\an8}They were Heather West, 390 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,720 {\an8}Rosemary West's eldest daughter, who was 16. 391 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,520 Shirley Robinson, who was eight months pregnant by Frederick West. 392 00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:28,400 {\an8}Alison Chambers, who lived in a children's home in Gloucester. 393 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,280 {\an8}Lynda Gough, who'd left home in 1973. 394 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,200 {\an8}Carol Cooper, who'd run away from a children's home in Worcester. 395 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,080 Lucy Partington, who vanished after visiting a friend in Cheltenham. 396 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:43,120 {\an8}Thérèse Siegenthaler, a Swiss student who'd vanished while hitchhiking. 397 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,440 Shirley Hubbard, who'd lived with foster parents in Droitwich. 398 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,760 And Juanita Mott, another lodger. 399 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,880 We were picked up in a car, 400 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,440 shielded from the press because they were camped outside, 401 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,000 and taken to the station, and we were told, 402 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,720 "Really sorry to tell you, 403 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,680 but it is confirmed that Juanita was found in the cellar." 404 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,760 You talked to Hazel about a girl from Newent? 405 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,360 Yeah. 406 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,000 If I said her name, which we now think we might have… 407 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:15,960 Yeah. 408 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,960 …would you think you'd recognize it? 409 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,560 I'll certainly try. 410 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,080 Juanita Mott? 411 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,720 - That's her. - And what did you do with her? 412 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,800 Buried her in that hole. 413 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,280 It wasn't like, "Oh, our little bubble's burst." 414 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:37,760 It was worse. 415 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,440 It was worse than you could ever imagine. 416 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,000 It was an explosion. 417 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,520 Poof, this is it. 418 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,000 Your life is never going to be the same because of what he did to her. 419 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,480 Up until that day, I honestly thought, 420 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,560 "One day she's going to get hold of us." 421 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,480 "Never know, she might just knock on my door one day." 422 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,120 But she never came back. 423 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,920 There was a phone call from the police saying they had some news for us. 424 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,040 Russell Williams arrived and then said, 425 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,480 Fred West had told them that one of them was called Lucy. 426 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,560 The first question that you always get asked is, "Are you sure?" 427 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,800 Because I guess there would always be a little… 428 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,120 …a little sliver of hope that it's not their loved one 429 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,800 and their loved one's gonna and walk through the door one day, 430 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,680 but we know that reality doesn't exist. 431 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,280 My mum didn't express much emotion at all, 432 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,560 but we met Dad off the train, 433 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,360 and he just broke down and burst into tears, 434 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,520 and I… we just held each other. 435 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,320 You don't really think. 436 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,320 You just feel 437 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,120 a huge amount of shock and denial. 438 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,880 That's right, you can't quite take it in. It doesn't feel real. 439 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,440 Especially because the deaths were so brutal 440 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:25,800 and meaningless. 441 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,840 It all becomes reality that, yeah, 442 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,960 it's all confirmed that you're never going to see her again, 443 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,120 and then you realize why she never got in touch, that all makes sense. 444 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,600 It makes you realize that it must have been complete hell for her at the end, 445 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,000 knowing that you're on your own. 446 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,280 Nobody knows you're there, so no one's gonna come save you. 447 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,200 No one's going to… There's not gonna be a knock at the door… 448 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,120 It's, um… 449 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,040 It must have been horrific for her, for all of them. 450 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,240 She was hidden. They were all hidden. 451 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,320 And my mum, having to see my mum's face, listen to this… 452 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,320 {\an8}I saw my hero, my mum, my hero… 453 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:32,840 …crumble. 454 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,120 Since you've been spoken to, 455 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,000 we've been able to piece together 456 00:31:55,800 --> 00:32:01,720 eh, a little bit more about each body as it's been recovered by the police. 457 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,320 Most of these people have got some sort of material with them. 458 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,760 - Oh, have they? - Yes. 459 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,840 I don't know, Hazel. No idea. I can't… 460 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,640 Well, why don't you know? 461 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,320 So that means then, that somebody else might be involved. 462 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,800 If you didn't put it there. 463 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,800 - Hazel. - Well, I don't know. 464 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,520 There is nobody else involved. I did it all on my own. 465 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:25,440 Right. 466 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,960 And there is nobody else. Let's get that straight. 467 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:28,880 Right, so… 468 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,760 Just because I don't remember what I did to each one in detail, 469 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,680 surely after these good 20-odd years. 470 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,160 Fred West had emphasized that there was nobody else involved but himself. 471 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,240 Rosemary West didn't know anything about it. 472 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,960 This was all done behind Rose's back. 473 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,440 I kept her pregnant. I kept her with other men. 474 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,120 Everything out of my way… when I did things. 475 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,960 You said the other day you and her mentally switched into each other. 476 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,000 - Yes. - You're "as one," you said. 477 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,280 That was your words. 478 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,960 But there's a difference, a lot of difference 479 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,000 between evil locking together and love. 480 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,000 Eh? 481 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:26,360 Rosemary West is the most important person in his world. 482 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,560 He needs to protect, to keep safe, Rosemary West. 483 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,400 I've been tempted over the years to tell Rose, I must admit. 484 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,960 - But I never ever did. - Why, Fred? 485 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,360 Um… Well, one reason, I didn't know how she'd take it, 486 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,560 what she'd do, whether she'd walk out on me, 487 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,880 or what would happen, or whether she'd think she was at risk. 488 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,280 I mean, Rose might look a bit hard faced and that, but Rose is as soft as a kitten. 489 00:34:09,240 --> 00:34:14,480 At all times, Fred was seeking to protect Rose. 490 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:21,160 He had a notion that he would go to prison for however long it may be, 491 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,400 but she would live nearby, and she would visit him, 492 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:31,200 and that that relationship would continue, uh, unabated. 493 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,600 Mad and weird as he was, and mad and weird as she is, 494 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,000 on some depraved level, they also loved each other. 495 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,640 Rose was his whole world, and he wanted to save her. 496 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,960 If they think I've got fuck all to do with it, 497 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,200 they may as well put me in a cell and throw the key away. 498 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,600 Because I shall always protest my innocence, 499 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,840 and I don't care if I spend the rest of my life in the fucking nick. 500 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,520 I always sensed that there was more to this story 501 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,040 than I was getting from Fred. 502 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,560 And by more, I mean 503 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,160 the knowledge and involvement by Rose. 504 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,920 The police have gone to see a girl this afternoon. 505 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,600 Used to be the nanny? 506 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,080 Oh, um, Carol. 507 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,160 I caught the news, and all I can remember is it said 508 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,280 a man in Gloucester had been arrested for all the killings that went on. 509 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,320 And I just broke down. 510 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,880 I got onto the police straight away, and I just said, 511 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,080 "You need to really look into this because he did the same to me years ago." 512 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:08,280 "He was gonna kill me." 513 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,440 When Fred was being questioned, he's asked about Caroline Owens. 514 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,320 She lived at 25 Cromwell Street as the nanny in 1972. 515 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,960 So in '94, a detective was sent to see Caroline 516 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,480 and take a statement from her. 517 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,720 When I was actually living there, I wasn't aware 518 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,080 of what was actually going on, 519 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,320 um, especially with Rose and the male visitors to the house. 520 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,040 {\an8}During a conversation one evening with Fred, 521 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,280 {\an8}he said, "Me and Rose want you to join our sex circle." 522 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,520 {\an8}And I think he thought that he could groom me. 523 00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:07,040 {\an8}To me, that was dirty, scary. 524 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,400 {\an8}It wasn't me. 525 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,840 {\an8}I left the Wests… 526 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,840 and went back home to live. 527 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,800 But on December 6th, 528 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,120 I remember going to hitchhike to see my boyfriend in Tewkesbury, 529 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,080 and I saw their car. 530 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,200 At the time, I was thinking, 531 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,080 they are gonna be really angry with me because of how I left. 532 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:41,880 I didn't think they would do anything really bad to me at all. 533 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,080 So I got in the car. 534 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:03,760 You pull into a gateway… 535 00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:07,800 turn around and whack her one. 536 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,640 - She's semi-unconscious. - Rubbish. 537 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:14,560 And she's tied up and taped and taken back. 538 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,840 - And you were with Rose. - No! 539 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:22,560 I was always on me own when I went. 540 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,800 - You weren't. - No, you weren't. 541 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:26,680 You went with your missus. 542 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,960 - Rose sat on her. - No, she did not! 543 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,680 The truth is you will write Rose out of anything you can. 544 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,120 No! That is wrong! 545 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,760 There's these people buried in the basement, the garden, 546 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,640 and your wife didn't know anything about it. 547 00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:43,440 It's just too ridiculous. 548 00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:49,200 Fred was not on his own. 549 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,960 Rose was in the car. 550 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,840 This MO, the way that they abducted her 551 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,720 was very similar to how we perceived and imagined the other victims were taken, 552 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,960 that were taken from the streets, hitchhiking, 553 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,240 or waiting at the bus stop as Lucy was. 554 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,320 That's a blueprint of what happened to these other girls. 555 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,440 At some point, I blacked out. 556 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:22,320 And when I came back round, my hands were already tied behind my back. 557 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,120 And all the time he was saying, "Now, just calm down." 558 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,160 Uh… 559 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:32,400 "We're gonna take you back home. We're gonna clean you up." 560 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:33,640 Uh… 561 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,880 "Calm you down, give you a cup of tea, then we'll go take you back home." 562 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,160 At that time, I wasn't sure what was gonna happen. 563 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,600 When she's in the house, she describes how 564 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,120 both you and Rose undressed her. 565 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,200 They put a gag in my mouth. 566 00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,720 My hands were tied behind my back. 567 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:02,800 I had a blindfold put on me. 568 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,000 And then I was put onto this mattress on the floor. 569 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,360 That's when the sexual assault started. 570 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,560 Early hours of the morning, all of that stopped. 571 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,080 He grabbed hold of me by the throat and lifted me up, 572 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,480 shouting at me and telling me 573 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,480 that he was gonna keep me in the cellar. 574 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,040 "And when they've finished with you, 575 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,680 we're gonna kill you and bury you under the paving stones of Gloucester." 576 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:48,360 What about that, Fred? 577 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,320 Absolute rubbish. 578 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,400 Eventually, she managed to escape. 579 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,480 If Fred had been imprisoned for the offense, 580 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,680 he would have come across the radar a lot more than what he did 581 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:17,240 when it came to starting to look for the abductions of these, uh, girls 582 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,400 that were happening around that time. 583 00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:26,440 There'd been a court case in 1973, 584 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,720 and regrettably, scandalously, actually, the Wests had got away with a fine. 585 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,440 They should have been jailed, really. 586 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,880 The level of abuse was far more serious 587 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,560 than the way it was actually dealt with in the Magistrates', as a summary matter, 588 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,280 when really it involved rape 589 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,760 and should have been indicted and go to the Crown Court. 590 00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:01,040 And the outcome at that time was a £25 fine, I think it was, 591 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,200 at the Magistrates' court for both of the Wests. 592 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,640 I think, yes, it is a missed opportunity. 593 00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:13,000 It was a missed opportunity to raise the profile of Fred and Rose 594 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,960 to identify them as possible sex offenders 595 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,640 who could carry out abductions, kidnapping, and imprisonment. 596 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,760 Fred and Rose did get off lightly with it. 597 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,840 What they did was evil. 598 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,200 It's almost like, "Oh well, we got away with it." 599 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,440 "But only by the skin of our teeth. So next time, they've got to die." 600 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,160 In hindsight, did you ever think she was a "practice run" for you? 601 00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,880 What do you mean, "practice run"? 602 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,600 The others ended up being taped, and they're dead. 603 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,280 The only difference is with Mrs. Owens is she's still wandering around, luckily. 604 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,360 Was it a practice run? 605 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,920 {\an8}The relationship between Frederick and Rosemary West 606 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,840 {\an8}was essential to this whole case. 607 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,880 {\an8}When she came to Frederick West, 608 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,120 she was a relatively young woman. 609 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:27,080 A girl, almost, and that, yes, she had had a difficult early life. 610 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,480 She had had a sexually abusive life. 611 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,240 But it was Frederick West who taught her, 612 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,920 allowed her to fly in this sadistic, cruel world. 613 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,080 One day Rose said she was going out with Fred. 614 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,960 And I said, "Well, why are you going with him, you know?" 615 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:50,960 And she turned and said to me, 616 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,160 "So long as there's a woman in the car with a male, 617 00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:58,040 there's always an easy chance for another girl 618 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,880 who they're going to pick up and get inside the car." 619 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,880 "Because she will be there with him." 620 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:10,800 What I'm seeing is 621 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:15,840 a series of behaviors that tell me 622 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:22,680 I'm looking at a pair of sexually sadistic predators. 623 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,040 Not one but two. 624 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,720 I could understand if it was very difficult 625 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,520 for you to tell us if Rose was involved. 626 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,440 I know that, and you know I know that, don't you? 627 00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,280 We're not stupid, hmm? 628 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:58,600 You're not alone in this whole… saga. 629 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:01,320 Fred? 630 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,840 From the very first day of this inquiry, 631 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:16,480 my main concern has been to protect other person or persons. 632 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:24,600 I have not, and still not… told you the whole truth 633 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,320 about these matters.