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You wanted to know
how I met Charlie?
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Not really much to tell.
I played music with Charlie.
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Tried to help him get
a recording contract…
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…by helping him to record
some good quality demos.
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I was in that music community
in Los Angeles.
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I was friends with Dennis Wilson
of the Beach Boys.
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Charlie had some talent.
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People thought that he should be able to
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get his songs out there in the world.
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Gregg Jakobson,
Dennis Wilson, and I…
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were interested in
getting Charlie to settle down,
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come into a studio,
just him and his guitar,
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play and sing his songs.
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And let's see if we can get
a decent recording to use as a demo.
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I showed up at Spahn Ranch
just for a visit.
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Charlie pulled me aside and he told me
that he had killed a Black Panther.
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His name is Bernard Crowe,
he's a low-rent drug dealer in Los Angeles.
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He was not a Black Panther.
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He looked the part
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because it was fashionable
in those days to be that.
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Charlie assumed, wrongly,
that he had killed the guy.
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He thought that he had killed
a Black Panther.
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He said that he was expecting
a retaliation from the Black Panthers.
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He asked me if I would stay and help
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because there were not enough men
at the ranch.
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That was part of my downfall.
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Everybody was on the lookout
for a carload of Black Panthers.
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Every car that came up was being examined.
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Meanwhile, there just wasn't much going on
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and there were bikers hanging out there.
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I was building a motorcycle at that time,
so I sort of idolized these bikers.
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I got involved in a drug deal with them.
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I had a friend in Topanga Canyon,
Gary Hinman,
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who had a batch of encapsulated mescaline
that he was selling.
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The next day, the bikers came back
and wanted their money back.
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The reason was
that they said they all got sick on it,
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and they probably didn't like
the hallucinations.
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They threatened me,
held a knife to my throat.
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The only option
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was to see if Gary would give me
the money back.
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I pulled the gun on him.
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And he said, "I don't have it anymore."
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I said, "Look, Gary, I just need something
to get the bikers off my back."
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He said, "You can have my cars."
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Suddenly, Manson shows up at the door.
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Gary says, "Hi, Charlie!"
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Charlie steps in
and slashes him across the face.
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My exact words.
"Charlie, why did you do that?"
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Realizing his mistake,
Manson left me with the problem.
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So I sat with Gary for a day,
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trying to smooth everything over.
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I used dental floss
and a needle to sew up his ear.
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But it should have been stitched.
There's no question.
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But if I took him to an emergency room,
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I knew that he was going to tell
what happened.
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It was gonna bring
the whole world down on top of me.
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I called Charlie.
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I said, "This is your problem."
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"You need to come
and take care of what you created."
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His response was I knew what to do
as well as he did.
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And hung up the phone.
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And I made this decision.
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I had to kill him and get out of there.
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I just ran at him, stabbed him twice.
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He went down, and he died.
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Because he would tell on me.
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I don't remember who put the paw print,
"POLITICAL PIGGY" on the wall.
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I remember that everybody had it
in their minds about the Black Panthers.
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We'd been kind of absorbed in that
for a couple of weeks
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since the Bernard Crowe shooting,
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and what Charlie had said,
that the Black Panthers were the enemies.
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There was an idea
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to make it seem that the Black Panthers
were responsible for killing Gary.
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Hence, the panther paw on the wall.
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Was it the next day?
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I don't really think that had a lot to do
with what happened.
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In order to understand what happened,
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you have to go back
to the Bernard Crowe shooting.
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Remember, Charlie thought
that he had killed him.
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He was afraid
somebody was going to snitch on him.
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The person that he was
afraid of the most was Tex Watson.
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He was part of Charlie's Family
living at Spahn Ranch.
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Tex Watson was a disciple of Charlie.
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He was worshipful.
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Watson had orchestrated the drug deal
with Bernard Crowe that backfired
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and put Charlie in the position
of having to kill Crowe.
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He really didn't know the guy.
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He just decided
he was going to save the day,
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get in the middle of something
that Tex Watson had created.
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Charlie's way
of protecting himself from Watson
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was the typical convict way of insurance.
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If someone is a potential snitch,
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then you make that person complicit
in illegal activity.
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You have something on them
just as they have something on you.
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I don't know if he knew
that I was in jail.
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There's no evidence of that.
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I can see where you would have
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thoughts about
the correlations of those things.
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I think it's important
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that the story be stripped down
to the bare bones.
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The bare bones of the thing.
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There's no doubt in my mind
what the motivation was. None. Zero.
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Charlie had gotten paranoid
of his own people.
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He wanted to bind them to him
through their committing bad crimes.
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That was the true motive.
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So he sent Tex Watson
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to kill Terry.
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Terry lived at Cielo Drive.
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All the time that Charlie knew him,
he lived at Cielo Drive.
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He didn't know that Terry had moved.
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Watson asked,
"What if there's somebody else there?"
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Charlie just told him
to kill whoever's there.
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The ignorance of not knowing
that Terry had left that residence
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meant that five other people got murdered.
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Bugliosi knew what the truth was,
but didn't reveal it.
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It was not to start a race war,
which was Bugliosi's theory.
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He knew what the truth was.
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He knew that Manson talked about
that kind of shit.
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Stories told around the campfire
that really were just that.
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But it had nothing to do with the murders.
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His intention from the get-go
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was to do exactly what he did.
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Write a book,
make a bazillion dollars on that book,
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and live on it for the rest of his life.
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And sell the movie rights.
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Which is what he did.
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His writer was sitting in the courtroom
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taking notes for the book
that they were already writing
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while he was trying Charlie
and those three girls.
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He had to get a conviction.
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He wanted to portray himself in this book
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as the white knight protecting
all the people of America.
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How can I control your mind?
Can I make a robot out of you?
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Can you control mine
or make a robot out of me?
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People had Leslie van Houten
long before I had her.
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Her mother had her first.
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Her dad had her.
Her parents had her. Her school had her.
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The TV had her. The movies had her.
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And then you come up and say,
"Well, you had influence over her."
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Certainly I had influence over her,
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I have influence over everybody I meet.
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But that doesn't mean
that I directed her to be herself.
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I didn't set your house on fire.
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Don't blame me for your children.
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You raised your children,
you programmed your children,
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and you made your children.
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The problem
with this story in particular
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is that people are very fond of their…
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fantasy.
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They don't want to hear
how mundane the story actually is,
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how not a mastermind Charlie actually was.
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In his paranoid delusions,
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in his miscalculations,
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it was just
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blunder after blunder after blunder.
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If you only knew
what I know now in terms of
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the criminal mindset.
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Yeah, they do.
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They want it to be more complicated
than it is,
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and it's so hard to disabuse people
from those fantasies.
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