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00:00:18,143 --> 00:00:21,146
[suspenseful music playing]
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[car radio flipping stations]
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[William Pierce over radio]
It's frighteningly clear now
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00:00:43,335 --> 00:00:45,545
that there is no way
to win the struggle
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in which we are engaged
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without shedding torrents,
veritable rivers of blood.
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[thunder crashing]
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[radio flipping stations]
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[Rush Limbaugh over radio]
It's an endless parade
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of the dregs of our society.
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This is your country.
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These are the people
that live next door to you.
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This is what's become
of your country.
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[radio flipping stations]
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[G. Gordon Liddy] Neutering
the Second Amendment
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with the assault weapons ban,
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violating the 10th Amendment
with the Brady Bill,
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and slaughtering citizens
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using the ATF
and the FBI Schutzstaffel
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is shredding the Constitution.
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[radio flipping stations]
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[thunder crashing]
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[static over radio]
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[Mark Koernke] The enemy has
many assets at their disposal.
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The best one
we have here is you.
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[thunder rumbling]
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- [man] Yeah, now you're on it.
- I don't think so.
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[man] Yeah, the red light's on.
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Does it say "recording" there?
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[woman] Every April 19th
is bittersweet.
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I remember exactly
what I was doing that morning.
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- [child giggling]
- [Sanders] Who's in that cave?
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[dramatic music plays]
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[Sanders] What's on my back?
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Uh, a raccoon.
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[child laughs]
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[Sanders] My grandchildren,
Chase and Colton,
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I went in and flipped
the light on in their bedroom,
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and I sang, "Good morning
to you. Good morning to you.
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We're all in our places
with sunshine-y faces.
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What a nice way
to start a new Wednesday."
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And Chase begins to giggle.
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- [giggles]
- [Sanders] Those are so cute.
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- What are you eating, Chase?
- [Colton babbling]
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[man] Bye-bye.
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[Sanders] I remember when
I left them at the daycare...
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- [man] Look at his teefers.
- [Sanders] I love you.
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Are we on our way to school?
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[Sanders] ...there
in the Federal Building.
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The little donut crumbs
that were on their faces.
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Then, at 9:02...
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[explosion]
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[glass and metal rattling]
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[reporter 1] It looks like
part of the building
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has been blown away.
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We'll have to bank around
the other side
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so I can get
a better view of it.
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[reporter 2] As the chopper goes
around the Federal Building...
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- [reporter 3] Wow.
- [reporter 2] Look at that shot.
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- [reporter 3] Holy cow.
- [reporter 2] Incredible.
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The side
of the Federal Building
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has been blown off.
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[people clamoring]
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[man] Get back!
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Get 'em back! Get 'em back!
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[yelling indistinctly]
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[sirens wailing]
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[man over radio] We got
damage and injuries
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- all up and down Broadway.
- [man] Get them back!
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[man over radio]
We need all fire, ambulances
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you can get.
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[ominous music playing]
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[woman] It felt to me
like my skin was burning off.
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It was very hot,
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and it was a wind so powerful
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that it felt like
it pinned my hair back.
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[woman] I heard
a very loud explosion,
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and I noticed a plume of smoke
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coming up
from downtown Oklahoma City.
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So I ran back in the house
and turned on the TV.
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That's where my daughter,
Frankie, works.
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And as we made our way
closer to the building...
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I said, "My daughter is dead."
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[man] I had little hope.
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Because Julie worked
on the first floor.
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And of course the first floor
had more deaths
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than any other floor.
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[sirens wailing]
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April 19th,
my dad had an appointment
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to go down to the Social
Security building that morning.
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I knew my mom
went down with him.
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The news starts to come in,
"There's been a bomb."
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When they said
the Social Security building,
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I mean...
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everything at that moment
just stopped.
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[man over radio] Got two down.
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They're unconscious
and not moving.
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I need ambulances.
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[Tom Brokaw]
In the heart of Oklahoma,
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in the heart
of the capital city,
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a terrible bomb
has been exploded.
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The governor has had a report
that six children were killed
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in a daycare center.
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[man] Got one here!
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[man over radio] In the basement
of the Federal Building,
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there's a children's center.
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We need to get
fire department officials here
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as quick as we can.
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I said to my daughter,
I said, "Edye, the babies."
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And we take off running to
the north side of the building,
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and the building's gone.
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[somber music playing]
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[Edye sobbing]
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[Sanders] My son was
an off-duty police officer.
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He saw his mom and his sister
on TV,
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he knew something was wrong.
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[man] I looked up at the TV,
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and I saw my mom and my sister
clutching each other,
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and my sister was screaming,
"Where's my babies?
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Where's my babies?
Where's my babies?"
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[sobbing] My babies
were in there!
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[man over radio]
Have we got information
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on where they have taken
the children from the daycare?
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[dispatcher]
I have not been advised.
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[siren whoops]
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[Coss] Upon arrival at the site,
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my partner and I went
into the rubble.
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I went to the back side
of the building,
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which would be on the side
of the daycare center.
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They had about 10
to 12 children laid out
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on a piece of concrete slab.
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They were laid
one next to the other,
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and at the very end
to the right, I found Colton.
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I knew that would be
the last time I saw my nephew.
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I asked a state law enforcement
officer that was there
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if I could reach down,
hug him, and kiss him goodbye.
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And he told me,
"This is a crime scene.
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Do not touch the evidence."
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[somber music playing]
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[Katie Couric] Of all the sad
stories in Oklahoma City today,
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the most heartbreaking may be
the stories of the children
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who were in the daycare center
when the bomb exploded.
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What is
your overwhelming emotion
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as you face this horrendous
tragedy in your family?
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Those babies were just
like mine, and I loved them.
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And anybody could understand
the loss of a child,
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but to then have to watch
your child grieve
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00:08:01,272 --> 00:08:03,149
over the loss of those children,
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00:08:03,149 --> 00:08:05,568
it's devastating.
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00:08:05,568 --> 00:08:07,362
[Couric] Edye, are you confident
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00:08:07,362 --> 00:08:10,156
that the people behind this
will be caught?
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I don't know. I hope so.
153
00:08:13,451 --> 00:08:15,036
I-- I don't know.
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As a young reporter,
155
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I used to cover
Oklahoma City streets.
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Usually nothing more exciting
than a car crash.
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You know, everyone at NBC News
knew I was an Okie
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because I always bragged about
the fact that I was an Okie.
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So there was no doubt
who they were gonna send.
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When I got to the site
of the Federal Building,
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I thought, "This can't be
the place where I lived,
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Oklahoma City."
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It reminded me of Beirut.
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[siren wailing]
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It brought back memories
of the Marine barracks,
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and the embassy bombing,
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and other terrorist attacks
that I covered.
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00:09:02,334 --> 00:09:06,463
And I said, "This is Oklahoma,
this can't happen here."
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00:09:06,463 --> 00:09:08,923
[siren wailing in distance]
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00:09:08,923 --> 00:09:11,509
A U.S. government source
has told CBS News
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00:09:11,509 --> 00:09:14,971
it has Middle East terrorism
written all over it.
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[Boettcher] Everyone
was thinking Arab terrorism
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because there'd been an attempt
174
00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:21,561
to bomb
the World Trade Center...
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00:09:23,021 --> 00:09:26,107
and the bombers,
they were from the Middle East.
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00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:29,069
But I went to NBC and said,
177
00:09:29,069 --> 00:09:33,531
"Let me put together a team
to investigate this."
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00:09:33,865 --> 00:09:36,868
The first person I thought of
was Bob Sands.
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00:09:37,577 --> 00:09:40,872
I have this friend,
and he had done some work
180
00:09:40,872 --> 00:09:43,917
for some far right-wing people
in Duncan, Oklahoma.
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So I said,
"Just check the boards
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and see what the chatter is."
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- [dial-up modem screeching]
- [keyboard clacking]
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00:09:50,048 --> 00:09:51,883
[Sands] About an hour later
he called and said,
185
00:09:51,883 --> 00:09:54,552
"You're not gonna believe this.
You need to come here."
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00:09:54,552 --> 00:09:56,888
People were just going ape
over it
187
00:09:56,888 --> 00:09:59,808
in the far right,
the militia movement,
188
00:09:59,808 --> 00:10:02,060
saying, "Who did this?
What's that all about?
189
00:10:02,060 --> 00:10:03,812
That's awesome."
190
00:10:04,729 --> 00:10:08,608
I would just ask that you
and the American people
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00:10:08,608 --> 00:10:11,778
not rush to any conclusions
192
00:10:11,778 --> 00:10:13,780
unsupported by known evidence
193
00:10:13,780 --> 00:10:16,408
and that we give investigators
the space they need
194
00:10:16,408 --> 00:10:17,909
to do their job.
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00:10:17,909 --> 00:10:20,662
[Clinton] My initial reaction
was, first of all,
196
00:10:20,662 --> 00:10:22,414
to try to get everybody
to calm down
197
00:10:22,414 --> 00:10:23,915
and not react with their words.
198
00:10:23,915 --> 00:10:26,876
I didn't want to stir whatever
was going on up any more.
199
00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:29,045
And everyone immediately assumed
200
00:10:29,045 --> 00:10:32,257
that it was
a Muslim extremist attack,
201
00:10:32,257 --> 00:10:34,092
and I wasn't so sure.
202
00:10:34,092 --> 00:10:36,052
- [gunshots in distance]
- Shoot from the waist...
203
00:10:36,052 --> 00:10:40,015
[Clinton] My native state
was almost like honey for bees
204
00:10:40,015 --> 00:10:42,600
to attract a lot
of these extremist groups,
205
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,270
and they moved
in and out of there.
206
00:10:45,270 --> 00:10:47,689
When Oklahoma City happened...
207
00:10:48,398 --> 00:10:51,359
my life and experience told me
208
00:10:51,359 --> 00:10:56,114
there was a very good chance
that this was a homegrown plot.
209
00:10:58,533 --> 00:11:01,202
On the drive up there, there's
a lot going through your head.
210
00:11:01,202 --> 00:11:03,830
You've got to command
a major bombing investigation,
211
00:11:03,830 --> 00:11:05,999
and you're thinking of
all the things you have to do.
212
00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:09,294
And I am thinking,
"April 19th, April 19th, okay."
213
00:11:09,294 --> 00:11:10,628
I just file it away.
214
00:11:10,628 --> 00:11:12,756
I get a call from
a nationally known reporter,
215
00:11:12,756 --> 00:11:15,925
and she said,
"Is this Middle Eastern?"
216
00:11:16,509 --> 00:11:19,429
I said, "No, it's Bubbas.
April 19th."
217
00:11:20,638 --> 00:11:21,890
Two years earlier,
218
00:11:21,890 --> 00:11:24,642
April 19th was the siege
in Waco.
219
00:11:25,310 --> 00:11:27,979
And I thought we were seeing
the results of that anger
220
00:11:27,979 --> 00:11:30,148
against actions on the part
of the government.
221
00:11:30,148 --> 00:11:32,025
My thought is
it's going to be Bubbas.
222
00:11:32,025 --> 00:11:34,736
[reporter] Emergency crews try
to assist the injured.
223
00:11:34,736 --> 00:11:37,781
[man] That day,
it was overwhelming
224
00:11:37,781 --> 00:11:40,158
to first go to the crime scene.
225
00:11:41,409 --> 00:11:44,454
Secret Service, IRS, ATF,
226
00:11:44,454 --> 00:11:49,209
multiple federal agencies
were housed in that building.
227
00:11:51,127 --> 00:11:54,130
I was walking approximately
a block and a half
228
00:11:54,130 --> 00:11:55,674
from the bomb scene.
229
00:11:55,674 --> 00:11:58,218
There were two FBI agents
and a sheriff
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00:11:58,218 --> 00:12:01,513
looking at this rear axle
of a truck.
231
00:12:02,222 --> 00:12:04,974
They believed it had come
from the truck
232
00:12:04,974 --> 00:12:07,060
responsible for the bombing,
233
00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:09,854
and they were removing
the VIN number
234
00:12:09,854 --> 00:12:12,232
from the rear axle.
235
00:12:13,108 --> 00:12:15,235
And I told them to,
"Guard that with your life.
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00:12:15,235 --> 00:12:16,361
That's probably gonna be
237
00:12:16,361 --> 00:12:18,780
the most important piece
of evidence we have
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00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:20,699
in this entire investigation."
239
00:12:20,699 --> 00:12:22,867
[suspenseful music playing]
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00:12:25,328 --> 00:12:28,081
We learned that particular truck
had been rented
241
00:12:28,081 --> 00:12:32,168
three or four days before
in Junction City, Kansas.
242
00:12:33,003 --> 00:12:36,923
The person who rented it went
by the name of Robert Kling,
243
00:12:36,923 --> 00:12:40,552
and he used a birth date
of April 19th.
244
00:12:42,012 --> 00:12:44,597
The mechanic
that was working there
245
00:12:44,597 --> 00:12:47,183
probably had
the best recollection
246
00:12:47,183 --> 00:12:49,561
of what he looked like.
247
00:12:49,561 --> 00:12:51,688
Also he had a recollection
of a person
248
00:12:51,688 --> 00:12:53,857
he thought had been with him,
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00:12:53,857 --> 00:12:56,484
commonly called
John Doe Number 2.
250
00:13:03,992 --> 00:13:06,578
[Coulson] We sent agents
all over the country,
251
00:13:06,578 --> 00:13:08,288
primarily on I-35,
252
00:13:08,288 --> 00:13:10,749
going north and south
on the interstates.
253
00:13:10,749 --> 00:13:13,668
They went to a place
called the Dreamland Hotel.
254
00:13:14,419 --> 00:13:16,087
They interview the owner,
show her pictures.
255
00:13:16,087 --> 00:13:18,256
"Yeah, he was here.
His name's Tim McVeigh."
256
00:13:18,256 --> 00:13:21,676
He was a very nice young man
basically.
257
00:13:21,676 --> 00:13:23,094
It's very shocking to think
258
00:13:23,094 --> 00:13:26,473
somebody has
such a deprived mind.
259
00:13:27,515 --> 00:13:29,851
[Ricks] We got
the registration information.
260
00:13:29,851 --> 00:13:32,103
His name was Timothy McVeigh.
261
00:13:32,103 --> 00:13:35,857
So an agent runs the name
of Timothy McVeigh
262
00:13:35,857 --> 00:13:37,400
and he gets a hit,
263
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,278
and says, "Boss, you're not
gonna believe this bullshit,
264
00:13:40,278 --> 00:13:44,991
but Timothy McVeigh
is-- is in custody."
265
00:13:45,909 --> 00:13:47,327
He had been arrested
266
00:13:47,327 --> 00:13:50,830
an hour and a half
after the bombing
267
00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:53,124
in Perry, Oklahoma.
268
00:13:54,959 --> 00:13:57,671
[man] Here he is
in his junker getaway car
269
00:13:57,671 --> 00:14:00,465
driving away
from the scene of the crime.
270
00:14:01,007 --> 00:14:03,802
And he gets on the thruway
and he--
271
00:14:03,802 --> 00:14:06,388
He thinks
he's gotten away with it.
272
00:14:07,138 --> 00:14:10,600
It turns out that McVeigh
was missing a license plate
273
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,686
from his vehicle.
274
00:14:12,686 --> 00:14:15,647
When the trooper starts
questioning McVeigh,
275
00:14:15,647 --> 00:14:17,816
he ascertains
that McVeigh is carrying
276
00:14:17,816 --> 00:14:21,152
an unregistered handgun.
277
00:14:21,653 --> 00:14:23,405
He arrests McVeigh.
278
00:14:23,988 --> 00:14:26,157
McVeigh was wearing a T-shirt
279
00:14:26,157 --> 00:14:30,203
celebrating the assassination
of Abraham Lincoln.
280
00:14:30,203 --> 00:14:33,998
And it always has astonished me
that...
281
00:14:34,541 --> 00:14:39,170
nobody put these two things
together at the time.
282
00:14:39,170 --> 00:14:42,048
But for two full days,
they had no idea
283
00:14:42,048 --> 00:14:44,342
that he was involved
with the bombing.
284
00:14:45,468 --> 00:14:48,680
And they were getting close
to letting him go.
285
00:14:50,807 --> 00:14:52,100
It's just hard to believe.
286
00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,061
You think it's going to be
a nationwide search,
287
00:14:55,061 --> 00:14:59,315
and now you're told
that he's roughly 70 miles away.
288
00:15:00,025 --> 00:15:01,735
[Coulson] I said,
"Call them and tell them,
289
00:15:01,735 --> 00:15:03,236
'Don't let that boy out.'"
290
00:15:03,236 --> 00:15:07,073
You can imagine
my phone ringing off my belt.
291
00:15:07,073 --> 00:15:10,076
I mean, the--
the Attorney General's calling,
292
00:15:10,076 --> 00:15:11,870
the director
of the FBI's calling me,
293
00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:13,413
"Get him out of there."
294
00:15:13,872 --> 00:15:16,041
Well, I was concerned
about a rescue
295
00:15:16,041 --> 00:15:17,584
or attempt to kill him.
296
00:15:17,584 --> 00:15:19,377
And I didn't want to be the man
297
00:15:19,377 --> 00:15:22,005
who took McVeigh into custody
and got him killed.
298
00:15:22,005 --> 00:15:23,381
Uh, not-- not good.
299
00:15:23,381 --> 00:15:25,592
I'd be working at Dairy Queen
if that happened.
300
00:15:25,592 --> 00:15:27,677
[ominous music playing]
301
00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:30,889
[Boettcher] He was captured
about 30 miles
302
00:15:30,889 --> 00:15:32,474
from where I grew up.
303
00:15:32,807 --> 00:15:34,934
And I thought it was foreigners.
304
00:15:35,477 --> 00:15:38,229
I didn't want to believe
an American could do this.
305
00:15:43,318 --> 00:15:46,446
They marched Timothy McVeigh
out of that jail,
306
00:15:46,446 --> 00:15:50,075
and I go, "You know,
it wasn't a foreigner.
307
00:15:50,075 --> 00:15:54,579
This is-- this is an American
doing this to Americans."
308
00:15:57,624 --> 00:16:02,087
[Coss] I was a little surprised
that it was an American.
309
00:16:03,254 --> 00:16:07,384
I drew a conclusion pretty quick
that this was payback for Waco
310
00:16:07,384 --> 00:16:09,219
and the kids
that were killed there.
311
00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:11,388
"You killed our kids,
we're gonna kill your kids."
312
00:16:12,847 --> 00:16:16,017
[Shaw] When I saw him
on television,
313
00:16:16,601 --> 00:16:20,313
I felt like I'd seen him
in the building before.
314
00:16:20,313 --> 00:16:23,149
I remember
being in the elevator...
315
00:16:23,775 --> 00:16:26,611
and two men got on the elevator,
316
00:16:26,611 --> 00:16:29,614
and one of them was McVeigh.
317
00:16:31,241 --> 00:16:33,618
I always wondered
if that was real
318
00:16:33,618 --> 00:16:39,165
or if I imagined that,
with everything else going on.
319
00:16:40,959 --> 00:16:43,461
[Welch] He had
that orange jumpsuit on.
320
00:16:44,462 --> 00:16:49,134
And my thought was, "I hope
that somebody has a rifle
321
00:16:49,134 --> 00:16:51,386
and can just
pick him off there."
322
00:16:51,386 --> 00:16:53,763
I mean, I was really wishing
for that.
323
00:16:55,598 --> 00:16:57,434
[Battle-Leverett] You're looking
for the monster,
324
00:16:57,434 --> 00:17:00,478
and you-- and you finally get
that day to see him,
325
00:17:00,478 --> 00:17:04,190
and you're thinking like,
"Wait a minute, is this him?"
326
00:17:04,190 --> 00:17:07,694
He looked like anyone's kid.
327
00:17:08,820 --> 00:17:12,240
Just your normal average Joe.
328
00:17:13,783 --> 00:17:16,911
[man] He's got this look
in his eyes.
329
00:17:16,911 --> 00:17:19,831
I believed that in his mind
330
00:17:19,831 --> 00:17:22,125
he wanted to look out
at the crowd,
331
00:17:22,125 --> 00:17:25,003
right straight into the cameras,
and go,
332
00:17:25,003 --> 00:17:26,671
"You're goddamn right I did it,
333
00:17:26,671 --> 00:17:29,674
and you're cowards
if you don't do the same thing."
334
00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:38,099
[reporter] There goes McVeigh,
the first confirmed arrest...
335
00:17:39,017 --> 00:17:41,353
in the Oklahoma bombing case.
336
00:17:46,441 --> 00:17:48,193
After we had McVeigh in custody,
337
00:17:48,193 --> 00:17:50,695
I had McVeigh's father flown
to Oklahoma City
338
00:17:50,695 --> 00:17:51,738
to meet with me.
339
00:17:51,738 --> 00:17:53,865
I asked him, "You know your son.
340
00:17:53,865 --> 00:17:55,533
Who would be involved in this?"
341
00:17:55,533 --> 00:17:58,870
And he said, "Terry Nichols
and Michael Fortier." Like that.
342
00:17:59,746 --> 00:18:02,207
[Ricks] We learned
he had been in basic training
343
00:18:02,207 --> 00:18:05,210
at Fort Benning, Georgia
with a couple of guys
344
00:18:05,210 --> 00:18:08,338
named Terry Nichols
and Michael Fortier.
345
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,423
Terry Nichols was older,
346
00:18:10,423 --> 00:18:12,550
but they had struck up
a friendship
347
00:18:12,550 --> 00:18:15,428
based on-- on
their political beliefs.
348
00:18:16,179 --> 00:18:20,558
We then learned Terry Nichols
is now living in Kansas.
349
00:18:21,393 --> 00:18:25,271
At his residence, we find
the remnants of fertilizer
350
00:18:25,271 --> 00:18:27,691
that was used
in the bombing itself.
351
00:18:27,691 --> 00:18:29,943
But one of the biggest
352
00:18:29,943 --> 00:18:32,570
and most important pieces
of information
353
00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:34,572
is a telephone card
354
00:18:34,572 --> 00:18:38,910
sold by a right-wing group
called Spotlight.
355
00:18:39,577 --> 00:18:41,788
We pretty much
were able to trace
356
00:18:41,788 --> 00:18:45,000
where they had been
throughout the United States
357
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,293
through that calling card.
358
00:18:48,545 --> 00:18:53,091
We find that Michael Fortier
is now living in Arizona.
359
00:18:53,633 --> 00:18:55,593
[Fortier] I think
people are looking right now
360
00:18:55,593 --> 00:18:56,803
for somebody to hang.
361
00:18:56,803 --> 00:18:59,389
Now he may feel like
there's nobody on this earth
362
00:18:59,389 --> 00:19:02,600
that is in any way supportive
of him.
363
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,478
But there is. There is.
364
00:19:05,478 --> 00:19:07,105
Everybody should be supportive
of him,
365
00:19:07,105 --> 00:19:08,606
because he is an innocent man.
366
00:19:10,984 --> 00:19:13,111
[Coulson] I interviewed
Michael Fortier.
367
00:19:13,111 --> 00:19:15,697
I said to him,
"I need your help."
368
00:19:15,697 --> 00:19:17,115
And he said,
369
00:19:17,115 --> 00:19:18,408
"You don't understand.
We're at war."
370
00:19:18,408 --> 00:19:20,118
I said,
"I'd have killed you today.
371
00:19:20,118 --> 00:19:22,454
I'd have killed you now
if we were at war.
372
00:19:22,454 --> 00:19:23,830
I'd have killed your buddies.
373
00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:26,124
We're not. You may be at war
with your country.
374
00:19:26,124 --> 00:19:27,751
Your country's not at war
with you."
375
00:19:28,126 --> 00:19:30,128
I do not believe
that Tim blew up
376
00:19:30,128 --> 00:19:32,088
any building in Oklahoma.
377
00:19:32,881 --> 00:19:35,633
And then he said to me,
"It's about the Constitution."
378
00:19:35,633 --> 00:19:38,428
I said, "You're right.
It is about the Constitution.
379
00:19:38,428 --> 00:19:40,347
Let me tell you
what's going to happen.
380
00:19:40,638 --> 00:19:43,266
I'm going to indict you
under the Constitution.
381
00:19:43,266 --> 00:19:44,893
I'm going to convict you
under the Constitution.
382
00:19:44,893 --> 00:19:47,437
We'll handle your appeals
under the Constitution.
383
00:19:47,437 --> 00:19:50,315
And sooner or later, somebody's
going to put you on a gurney
384
00:19:50,315 --> 00:19:53,693
and stick a needle in your arm,
and we're going to kill you.
385
00:19:53,693 --> 00:19:56,446
You better decide if you're
on my side or their side."
386
00:19:57,822 --> 00:20:01,326
[Boettcher] Later on,
after McVeigh had been charged,
387
00:20:01,326 --> 00:20:05,663
his attorneys let reporters
meet with McVeigh one-on-one.
388
00:20:05,663 --> 00:20:08,667
The ground rule is
this is not an interview,
389
00:20:08,667 --> 00:20:10,585
this is kind of
a "get to know you."
390
00:20:11,503 --> 00:20:14,172
I had covered
the first Gulf War,
391
00:20:14,172 --> 00:20:17,384
and I knew he had been
a veteran of that war.
392
00:20:17,384 --> 00:20:19,511
And we started talking
about the Gulf War,
393
00:20:19,511 --> 00:20:22,347
and he kind of lit up
because it was something
394
00:20:22,347 --> 00:20:24,849
that he could talk about,
that he felt proud of,
395
00:20:24,849 --> 00:20:26,518
that he had participated in.
396
00:20:27,268 --> 00:20:29,270
And then I shifted
the conversation
397
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:32,691
to his feelings
about the U.S. government.
398
00:20:33,525 --> 00:20:36,695
And I could see a light switch
go off in his eyes.
399
00:20:37,362 --> 00:20:38,571
And he went cold.
400
00:20:38,571 --> 00:20:41,783
And you could see
the anger well up.
401
00:20:43,618 --> 00:20:48,540
And I thought at that point,
"This guy for sure did it."
402
00:20:49,582 --> 00:20:51,501
[Sands] When Tim was identified,
403
00:20:51,501 --> 00:20:54,045
I just started
delving into the far right.
404
00:20:54,045 --> 00:20:57,924
I went to Little Rock, Arkansas
and did a lot of research there,
405
00:20:57,924 --> 00:20:59,467
because back in those days,
406
00:20:59,467 --> 00:21:01,219
you had to go
actually look at hard paper.
407
00:21:01,219 --> 00:21:05,056
Turns out way back in 1983,
408
00:21:05,056 --> 00:21:07,100
this virulent racist
409
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:09,060
by the name
of Richard Wayne Snell
410
00:21:09,519 --> 00:21:11,688
had decided
that he wanted to blow up
411
00:21:11,688 --> 00:21:13,398
the Alfred P. Murrah
Federal Building
412
00:21:13,398 --> 00:21:14,858
in Oklahoma City.
413
00:21:15,275 --> 00:21:17,569
I was stunned to find out
414
00:21:17,569 --> 00:21:19,362
that the far-right movement
415
00:21:19,362 --> 00:21:20,822
wanted to blow up
the Murrah Building.
416
00:21:20,822 --> 00:21:23,241
How come we never heard
about that before?
417
00:21:23,241 --> 00:21:25,618
[ominous music playing]
418
00:21:28,246 --> 00:21:29,581
[explosion]
419
00:21:29,998 --> 00:21:31,499
[gunfire]
420
00:21:32,417 --> 00:21:35,253
[man] Stay low! Get down! Whoo!
421
00:21:35,253 --> 00:21:36,338
[gunfire continues]
422
00:21:36,338 --> 00:21:37,839
[reporter 1] Pro-gun patriotism
423
00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:39,549
is becoming
more and more popular
424
00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:41,760
among economically
hard-pressed farmers.
425
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,762
[reporter 2]
Traditionally strong, proud,
426
00:21:43,762 --> 00:21:47,807
independent farmers are losing
their farms in record numbers.
427
00:21:47,807 --> 00:21:51,227
We think as many
as a million family farms
428
00:21:51,227 --> 00:21:52,604
were foreclosed on
429
00:21:52,604 --> 00:21:54,481
during the late '70s
and early '80s.
430
00:21:54,481 --> 00:21:56,775
- [farmers chanting] No sale!
- [Wright] There was anger
431
00:21:56,775 --> 00:22:00,987
against the federal government's
exploitation of farmers.
432
00:22:01,446 --> 00:22:05,158
Violence starts to occur
in the heartland
433
00:22:05,617 --> 00:22:07,952
because they were desperate.
434
00:22:09,454 --> 00:22:11,498
When Mr. Nixon was president,
435
00:22:11,498 --> 00:22:15,418
he encouraged farmers to plant
fencerow to fencerow.
436
00:22:15,418 --> 00:22:16,795
And they did.
437
00:22:16,795 --> 00:22:21,049
But then when the Soviets
invaded Afghanistan,
438
00:22:21,049 --> 00:22:23,385
President Carter put an embargo
439
00:22:23,385 --> 00:22:26,262
on grain sales
to the Soviet Union.
440
00:22:26,846 --> 00:22:30,642
And the result was
agricultural depression.
441
00:22:30,642 --> 00:22:32,644
[Ronald Reagan] The federal
government mustn't shirk
442
00:22:32,644 --> 00:22:36,272
its responsibility to undo some
of the damage that it created.
443
00:22:36,272 --> 00:22:38,817
We're doing a great deal
to help farmers.
444
00:22:38,817 --> 00:22:41,319
But the federal government
will not bail out
445
00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:42,987
every farmer hopelessly in debt.
446
00:22:42,987 --> 00:22:47,283
So today I have vetoed
this massive new bailout.
447
00:22:47,283 --> 00:22:49,452
Ronald Reagan
basically left the farmers
448
00:22:49,452 --> 00:22:53,039
to-- to, um, just go bankrupt.
449
00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:54,499
[farmers chanting] No sale!
450
00:22:54,499 --> 00:22:57,711
[Wright] Far-right leaders saw
a political opportunity.
451
00:22:57,711 --> 00:23:00,588
The first wave
of the patriot movement
452
00:23:00,588 --> 00:23:04,300
was able to successfully
mobilize farmers
453
00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:06,511
into this far-right movement,
454
00:23:06,511 --> 00:23:08,304
and they were willing
to take up arms,
455
00:23:08,304 --> 00:23:09,931
and some of them did.
456
00:23:10,432 --> 00:23:11,641
[Noble]
Everybody in the movement
457
00:23:11,641 --> 00:23:13,852
saw the land crisis,
farm crisis,
458
00:23:13,852 --> 00:23:17,439
as the government
and major corporations
459
00:23:17,439 --> 00:23:21,359
putting farmers
into a financial bind.
460
00:23:22,193 --> 00:23:25,363
Where the government is making
war with the American people
461
00:23:25,363 --> 00:23:27,115
and selling us out.
462
00:23:27,699 --> 00:23:31,578
I don't want to see
our group or any group
463
00:23:31,578 --> 00:23:36,332
forced against their will
into a con-- confrontation.
464
00:23:36,708 --> 00:23:39,961
I'm a former extremist
from a group known as CSA,
465
00:23:39,961 --> 00:23:41,880
the Covenant, the Sword,
and the Arm of the Lord
466
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,383
in Northern Arkansas
back in the '70s and '80s.
467
00:23:45,383 --> 00:23:46,843
[people singing indistinctly]
468
00:23:46,843 --> 00:23:49,471
[Noble] For me,
it was like heaven on earth.
469
00:23:51,139 --> 00:23:54,726
The group was started originally
by Jim Ellison
470
00:23:54,726 --> 00:23:58,480
to establish a community
based upon the apocalypse.
471
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,565
[all] ♪ Oh, Hallelujah ♪
472
00:24:00,565 --> 00:24:03,568
God began to deal with us
about the economic judgment,
473
00:24:03,568 --> 00:24:04,736
collapse, and upheaval
474
00:24:04,736 --> 00:24:07,197
that was coming
upon all the world.
475
00:24:07,197 --> 00:24:09,532
And especially on this country.
476
00:24:09,532 --> 00:24:11,951
[Noble] He said, "How are you
gonna protect yourself
477
00:24:11,951 --> 00:24:13,203
when it collapses
478
00:24:13,203 --> 00:24:15,663
and bad people want
what you have?"
479
00:24:15,663 --> 00:24:16,998
[Noble] Basically the Bible says
480
00:24:16,998 --> 00:24:19,459
we have the right to use
whatever the enemy uses,
481
00:24:19,459 --> 00:24:21,336
and the enemy, of course,
is gonna have guns.
482
00:24:21,336 --> 00:24:22,712
Fire!
483
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:26,591
[Noble] We had never talked
about guns before.
484
00:24:26,591 --> 00:24:29,094
We had never talked
about defense.
485
00:24:29,094 --> 00:24:31,763
- [gunfire]
- [mortar whistles]
486
00:24:32,472 --> 00:24:34,641
[Noble] Over the next 18 months,
487
00:24:34,641 --> 00:24:37,894
we started buying guns,
buying military equipment,
488
00:24:37,894 --> 00:24:39,604
and we trained so well
489
00:24:39,604 --> 00:24:41,731
that a magazine in those days
490
00:24:41,731 --> 00:24:44,359
called us the number one
civilian SWAT team
491
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:45,819
in the United States.
492
00:24:45,819 --> 00:24:47,070
[gunshots]
493
00:24:48,363 --> 00:24:51,116
The church kind of went
to the background.
494
00:24:52,450 --> 00:24:56,121
Guns and warfare went
to the forefront.
495
00:24:57,455 --> 00:24:59,958
The first plan
that we talked about
496
00:24:59,958 --> 00:25:03,044
was the Oklahoma City
Federal Building.
497
00:25:03,044 --> 00:25:04,587
[suspenseful music playing]
498
00:25:04,587 --> 00:25:06,464
[Noble] Sort of a quasi-member
of the group,
499
00:25:06,464 --> 00:25:09,134
Richard Wayne Snell,
he lived in Oklahoma,
500
00:25:09,134 --> 00:25:10,760
was having trouble with the IRS.
501
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,639
Him and Jim went
and cased the Murrah Building.
502
00:25:15,974 --> 00:25:17,892
There was
a lot of federal offices
503
00:25:17,892 --> 00:25:20,020
in that building,
so it seemed like a good target
504
00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:23,314
of various agencies
being in that building.
505
00:25:24,232 --> 00:25:25,775
So we had our munitions guy
506
00:25:25,775 --> 00:25:28,820
start to develop
a rocket launcher,
507
00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:31,448
and all the rockets would be
shot at the same time
508
00:25:31,448 --> 00:25:33,158
toward the Murrah Building.
509
00:25:33,992 --> 00:25:37,037
One of the missiles exploded
in the guy's hands
510
00:25:37,037 --> 00:25:39,748
that was building them,
scarred his hands real bad.
511
00:25:39,748 --> 00:25:42,917
So we took that as a sign that--
from God that we weren't--
512
00:25:42,917 --> 00:25:45,628
weren't supposed
to do that particular plan.
513
00:25:48,048 --> 00:25:50,342
[man] I was surprised
as to the extent
514
00:25:50,342 --> 00:25:52,260
of violence of this group,
515
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:55,221
believing that they were going
to cause the collapse
516
00:25:55,221 --> 00:25:57,307
of the United States of America
517
00:25:57,307 --> 00:26:01,019
and that they were going
to help create that collapse.
518
00:26:02,062 --> 00:26:04,689
We actually learned
that Richard Wayne Snell,
519
00:26:04,689 --> 00:26:06,900
a member of the CSA,
520
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:11,071
shot and killed
a pawn shop owner in Texarkana,
521
00:26:11,071 --> 00:26:12,781
believing he was Jewish,
522
00:26:12,781 --> 00:26:15,533
had killed Louis Bryant,
a state police trooper.
523
00:26:15,533 --> 00:26:18,536
Murdered I believe
that was in '84.
524
00:26:18,536 --> 00:26:20,997
Got out of my van,
525
00:26:20,997 --> 00:26:24,709
and I shot Officer Bryant
twice from the hip.
526
00:26:25,335 --> 00:26:27,045
[reporter] The death
of Trooper Louis Bryant
527
00:26:27,045 --> 00:26:29,589
was especially heartbreaking
for Bill Clinton.
528
00:26:29,589 --> 00:26:31,049
While the governor
was visibly shaken
529
00:26:31,049 --> 00:26:32,008
over the slaying,
530
00:26:32,008 --> 00:26:33,259
he was also angry.
531
00:26:33,259 --> 00:26:35,804
They don't have a right
to go around carrying weapons
532
00:26:35,804 --> 00:26:37,722
and taking the law
in their hands
533
00:26:37,722 --> 00:26:40,725
and acting as if
they're somehow playing God.
534
00:26:41,434 --> 00:26:43,812
[Noble] Snell got
the death penalty.
535
00:26:44,354 --> 00:26:45,897
Snell's execution was to be
536
00:26:45,897 --> 00:26:50,402
on the night
of April 19th, 1995,
537
00:26:50,402 --> 00:26:52,112
which happened to be the day
538
00:26:52,112 --> 00:26:56,032
the Oklahoma City
Federal Building got bombed.
539
00:26:56,908 --> 00:26:58,868
In the movement,
April 19th, of course,
540
00:26:58,868 --> 00:27:01,121
is what's called Patriot's Day.
541
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,542
First shot fired during
the American Revolution.
542
00:27:06,001 --> 00:27:09,212
Very special
for the whole movement.
543
00:27:09,921 --> 00:27:12,882
Jim told me one time, he said,
"I will go down in history
544
00:27:12,882 --> 00:27:15,135
in the second
American Revolution."
545
00:27:17,262 --> 00:27:18,930
In '84, I told Jim, I said,
546
00:27:18,930 --> 00:27:21,266
"So you really want all this
to start?"
547
00:27:21,266 --> 00:27:22,434
He said, "Yes."
548
00:27:22,434 --> 00:27:25,145
I said, "So build a bomb,
549
00:27:25,145 --> 00:27:26,563
and we'll start the war."
550
00:27:27,188 --> 00:27:29,524
So they decided to go
to find a good place
551
00:27:29,524 --> 00:27:31,151
to do the bombing.
552
00:27:33,611 --> 00:27:35,989
We found the gay church.
553
00:27:38,074 --> 00:27:41,953
We sorta had this stereotype
image in our heads
554
00:27:41,953 --> 00:27:44,622
that there was just going to be
this sexual orgy going on,
555
00:27:44,622 --> 00:27:45,749
which of course there wasn't.
556
00:27:45,749 --> 00:27:47,959
[people singing indistinctly]
557
00:27:47,959 --> 00:27:50,295
[Noble] I started seeing
people lift their hands up
558
00:27:50,295 --> 00:27:54,132
and lift their eyes up, look up
and start worshipping God.
559
00:27:55,592 --> 00:27:57,302
And I identified with them.
560
00:27:57,302 --> 00:28:01,931
So instantly they ceased being
homosexuals in my eyes
561
00:28:01,931 --> 00:28:05,477
and became Christians,
and I couldn't kill Christians.
562
00:28:08,146 --> 00:28:10,732
Later, I'm trying
to talk to God.
563
00:28:10,732 --> 00:28:13,610
And I said, "Lord,
I want to-- I want to leave."
564
00:28:13,610 --> 00:28:15,945
You know,
"I can't handle this no more."
565
00:28:15,945 --> 00:28:18,573
And the Lord spoke to me
and said, "You can't leave."
566
00:28:18,573 --> 00:28:20,533
[dramatic music playing]
567
00:28:21,326 --> 00:28:22,952
[reporter] It looks like
a battle zone.
568
00:28:22,952 --> 00:28:25,121
Police and federal agents
blockading the roads,
569
00:28:25,121 --> 00:28:27,832
surrounding the heavily armed compound
570
00:28:27,832 --> 00:28:29,959
of a white supremacist sect
calling itself
571
00:28:29,959 --> 00:28:32,796
the Covenant, the Sword,
and the Arm of the Lord.
572
00:28:32,796 --> 00:28:35,090
They want to arrest the leader,
James Ellison,
573
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:36,883
on an illegal weapons charge.
574
00:28:36,883 --> 00:28:39,344
[Clinton] The Covenant, the
Sword, and the Arm of the Lord,
575
00:28:39,344 --> 00:28:40,929
they lived in log cabins.
576
00:28:40,929 --> 00:28:43,682
Every log cabin had a trapdoor.
577
00:28:43,682 --> 00:28:45,600
When you dropped
through the trapdoor,
578
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,602
you were in a foxhole
579
00:28:47,602 --> 00:28:50,355
with your weapon
and ammunition ready.
580
00:28:51,856 --> 00:28:53,274
Federal officials,
581
00:28:53,274 --> 00:28:56,194
they really wanted
to storm this compound
582
00:28:56,194 --> 00:28:58,113
just like what later happened
at Waco.
583
00:28:59,656 --> 00:29:02,701
[Coulson] We knew that
a frontal assault attack
584
00:29:02,701 --> 00:29:05,704
on that entity,
a lot of people would die.
585
00:29:05,704 --> 00:29:08,081
And we didn't want that.
I do not want that.
586
00:29:08,081 --> 00:29:09,749
My job is not to kill people.
587
00:29:09,749 --> 00:29:11,209
I know how to do it,
but I don't want to.
588
00:29:11,209 --> 00:29:13,878
And I didn't want to get
into a shootout in the Ozarks.
589
00:29:14,337 --> 00:29:17,882
They had murder on their mind,
and they were doing it for God.
590
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,051
I found somebody
I could talk to.
591
00:29:20,051 --> 00:29:23,179
Actually, he came to me.
Kerry Noble.
592
00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:27,642
He said,
"I want to make this plain.
593
00:29:27,642 --> 00:29:29,894
We are not going to shoot first.
594
00:29:29,894 --> 00:29:31,855
We don't want to kill
anybody here.
595
00:29:32,439 --> 00:29:35,942
But if y'all shoot first,
I've got a Huey helicopter.
596
00:29:35,942 --> 00:29:37,193
It's gonna come up.
597
00:29:37,193 --> 00:29:39,237
It's got
a .50-caliber machine gun,
598
00:29:39,237 --> 00:29:41,865
and it's gonna start shooting
holes in all of your buildings.
599
00:29:41,865 --> 00:29:44,743
And in 30 seconds,
every man, woman, and child
600
00:29:44,743 --> 00:29:47,245
in your compound
is gonna be dead."
601
00:29:47,912 --> 00:29:49,831
So for four days,
I went back and forth
602
00:29:49,831 --> 00:29:52,125
talking to Jim,
talking to Danny.
603
00:29:53,084 --> 00:29:56,546
Finally on the fourth day,
Jim got that revelation
604
00:29:56,546 --> 00:29:58,590
that he could justify
in his mind
605
00:29:58,590 --> 00:30:02,010
a higher purpose
in surrendering.
606
00:30:02,927 --> 00:30:05,680
We get down there,
and then Danny looks at Jim
607
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,766
and says,
"I'm placing you under arrest,
608
00:30:07,766 --> 00:30:09,392
but I'm not gonna handcuff you
right now
609
00:30:09,392 --> 00:30:12,854
because I would not wanna be
handcuffed in front of my men."
610
00:30:13,355 --> 00:30:14,981
I'm just bawling.
611
00:30:18,068 --> 00:30:21,029
[reporter] The four-day siege
ended as quietly as it began.
612
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:23,698
The FBI got more
than it bargained for.
613
00:30:23,698 --> 00:30:27,786
Other weapons found at the camp
read like an arsenal checklist:
614
00:30:27,786 --> 00:30:29,788
hand-grenade casings,
blasting caps,
615
00:30:29,788 --> 00:30:32,332
dynamite, and various handguns.
616
00:30:32,332 --> 00:30:35,085
[Coulson] We found cyanide
in huge barrels.
617
00:30:35,085 --> 00:30:37,379
They were going to poison
the water supplies.
618
00:30:37,379 --> 00:30:39,047
[reporter] In addition
to the arrest
619
00:30:39,047 --> 00:30:40,965
of CSA leader James Ellison
620
00:30:40,965 --> 00:30:42,384
by federal and state
authorities...
621
00:30:42,384 --> 00:30:44,511
[Noble] Jim ended up
taking a plea bargain
622
00:30:44,511 --> 00:30:45,970
on the weapons charges.
623
00:30:45,970 --> 00:30:49,307
I got arrested,
ended up plea-bargaining,
624
00:30:49,307 --> 00:30:51,393
five-year sentence.
625
00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:54,729
My dream for moving there
626
00:30:55,146 --> 00:30:57,190
had turned into a nightmare.
627
00:30:58,316 --> 00:31:00,819
But the movement
continued to grow.
628
00:31:00,819 --> 00:31:03,113
[ominous music playing]
629
00:31:04,406 --> 00:31:07,826
[woman] The white power movement
had come together every summer
630
00:31:07,826 --> 00:31:09,536
at the Aryan Nations
World Congress
631
00:31:09,536 --> 00:31:10,995
in Hayden Lake, Idaho.
632
00:31:11,746 --> 00:31:16,126
In 1983, the movement adopted
a number of key strategies,
633
00:31:16,126 --> 00:31:19,921
and it decided to declare war
on the federal government.
634
00:31:20,672 --> 00:31:24,759
There is nothing more
that the white Aryan can do
635
00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:27,470
but obey the commandment
of Yahweh, his God,
636
00:31:27,470 --> 00:31:29,389
and separate himself.
637
00:31:31,016 --> 00:31:32,308
Blood, blood.
638
00:31:32,308 --> 00:31:34,519
The Founding Fathers
shed their blood
639
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,021
to give you this country.
640
00:31:36,021 --> 00:31:38,231
And if you want
to hold on to it,
641
00:31:38,231 --> 00:31:40,942
you're gonna have to shed
some of yours!
642
00:31:40,942 --> 00:31:43,611
[Belew] They thought
mainstream politics
643
00:31:43,611 --> 00:31:45,071
could never, ever deliver
644
00:31:45,071 --> 00:31:48,199
the kinds of social changes
they wanted.
645
00:31:53,747 --> 00:31:56,458
In the '80s,
there is a major campaign
646
00:31:56,458 --> 00:31:58,209
of violence and crime
647
00:31:58,209 --> 00:32:00,712
carried out by this movement
across the United States.
648
00:32:00,712 --> 00:32:02,172
[man] Right turn!
649
00:32:05,592 --> 00:32:07,177
[Belew] Robbing of armored cars,
650
00:32:07,177 --> 00:32:09,971
bombings of gay theaters, assassinations.
651
00:32:09,971 --> 00:32:12,140
[reporter] Last night,
Alan Berg was killed in ambush,
652
00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:13,725
arriving at his Denver home.
653
00:32:13,725 --> 00:32:15,602
Ten .45-caliber
shell casings...
654
00:32:15,602 --> 00:32:17,270
[Belew] It's a spree.
655
00:32:17,270 --> 00:32:21,191
By 1987, the government believes
it has a case
656
00:32:21,191 --> 00:32:22,442
that all of this activity
657
00:32:22,442 --> 00:32:25,070
represents
an organized criminal conspiracy
658
00:32:25,070 --> 00:32:27,238
to overthrow
the United States government.
659
00:32:29,407 --> 00:32:31,159
[reporter 1] Charges of sedition
are filed
660
00:32:31,159 --> 00:32:33,286
against Reverend Butler
and others.
661
00:32:33,286 --> 00:32:35,830
[reporter 2] The government said
it intends to prove
662
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:37,582
that ten of the defendants
plotted
663
00:32:37,582 --> 00:32:40,210
to overthrow the government
by force.
664
00:32:40,210 --> 00:32:42,921
[Belew] Seditious conspiracy is
a hard charge to prove.
665
00:32:42,921 --> 00:32:44,631
Prosecutors have to show
666
00:32:44,631 --> 00:32:47,842
that they intended to overthrow
the U.S. government
667
00:32:47,842 --> 00:32:49,302
and had the capacity to do so.
668
00:32:49,302 --> 00:32:51,971
[reporter] What the FBI now sees
across the country
669
00:32:51,971 --> 00:32:54,099
is a national network
of neo-Nazis
670
00:32:54,099 --> 00:32:55,433
and white supremacist groups
671
00:32:55,433 --> 00:32:57,477
whose goal
is to purge this country
672
00:32:57,477 --> 00:33:00,563
of Blacks, Jews,
and other minorities.
673
00:33:01,064 --> 00:33:04,693
One, I want to praise Yahweh's
holy and precious name.
674
00:33:05,276 --> 00:33:07,779
Two, I want to say to hell
with the federal government.
675
00:33:07,779 --> 00:33:10,990
[Belew] Louis Beam is really
the intellectual architect
676
00:33:10,990 --> 00:33:12,909
of leaderless resistance.
677
00:33:12,909 --> 00:33:14,536
And I think this has been
678
00:33:14,536 --> 00:33:17,622
the biggest legacy
of the white power movement
679
00:33:17,622 --> 00:33:21,126
and the reason
it's been with us since 1983.
680
00:33:21,126 --> 00:33:24,921
Activists can work violently
in common cause
681
00:33:24,921 --> 00:33:27,424
without direct communication
with leaders.
682
00:33:27,424 --> 00:33:29,467
There are still leaders
in leaderless resistance,
683
00:33:29,467 --> 00:33:32,012
but they're not culpable
because you can't trace them
684
00:33:32,012 --> 00:33:34,097
to the individual
violent actions.
685
00:33:35,265 --> 00:33:38,977
I understood that
that was their intent.
686
00:33:38,977 --> 00:33:41,479
But I also knew
that an Arkansas jury
687
00:33:41,479 --> 00:33:45,775
would have a hard time
convicting these folks
688
00:33:45,775 --> 00:33:49,612
of-- of attempted overthrow
of the United States government
689
00:33:49,612 --> 00:33:52,198
when they had no capacity,
really, to do that.
690
00:33:52,198 --> 00:33:55,493
That's why it's called
a conspiracy.
691
00:33:56,327 --> 00:34:00,165
The thought was trying
to overthrow the government.
692
00:34:00,832 --> 00:34:02,834
Actually, they couldn't do it.
693
00:34:02,834 --> 00:34:05,045
But they surely tried.
694
00:34:06,671 --> 00:34:10,175
The government had really
bet the farm on this trial.
695
00:34:10,175 --> 00:34:12,344
They had used
all of these other busts
696
00:34:12,344 --> 00:34:15,347
to kind of amass
state's witnesses.
697
00:34:15,847 --> 00:34:18,641
And it fails spectacularly.
698
00:34:19,142 --> 00:34:21,061
[reporter] It was
the first serious setback
699
00:34:21,061 --> 00:34:22,645
in the federal government's war
700
00:34:22,645 --> 00:34:24,898
against suspected
white supremacist groups.
701
00:34:24,898 --> 00:34:28,860
Thirteen defendants were found
not guilty of all charges,
702
00:34:28,860 --> 00:34:30,695
which included murder, robbery,
703
00:34:30,695 --> 00:34:33,406
and conspiracy
to overthrow the government.
704
00:34:34,366 --> 00:34:37,327
It was a tremendous defeat
for the government.
705
00:34:37,327 --> 00:34:40,205
And it totally enabled
the far-right movement.
706
00:34:40,205 --> 00:34:42,624
"We're free to go do
whatever we want to do.
707
00:34:42,624 --> 00:34:44,209
They tried. They missed.
708
00:34:44,209 --> 00:34:46,169
We have got them
by the short hairs."
709
00:34:46,169 --> 00:34:48,171
[reporter]
Sheila Beam passed out
710
00:34:48,171 --> 00:34:50,173
and had to be carried off
by her husband,
711
00:34:50,173 --> 00:34:51,633
who now walks free.
712
00:34:51,633 --> 00:34:54,052
[Sands] Leaderless resistance
was Louis Beam's idea,
713
00:34:54,052 --> 00:34:55,553
and he passed it along
714
00:34:55,553 --> 00:34:57,555
to everybody else
in the movement.
715
00:34:57,555 --> 00:35:00,517
The best way
to go after the government
716
00:35:00,517 --> 00:35:04,771
was not to have
this organized CSA compound
717
00:35:04,771 --> 00:35:07,232
but to have individuals...
718
00:35:08,108 --> 00:35:10,777
which led, of course,
to the term "lone wolves."
719
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:17,492
[ominous music playing]
720
00:35:19,911 --> 00:35:21,996
[men yelling indistinctly]
721
00:35:22,831 --> 00:35:25,917
[reporter] Iraqi troops
have crossed the border
722
00:35:25,917 --> 00:35:27,877
into Kuwait.
723
00:35:28,586 --> 00:35:31,381
[George H.W. Bush]
As was the case in the 1930s,
724
00:35:31,381 --> 00:35:34,634
we see in Saddam Hussein
an aggressive dictator
725
00:35:34,634 --> 00:35:36,011
threatening his neighbors.
726
00:35:36,011 --> 00:35:37,429
[Belew] In our history
727
00:35:37,429 --> 00:35:40,432
of extremist movements
in the United States,
728
00:35:40,432 --> 00:35:45,270
the most consistent correlation
with spikes in membership
729
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:47,605
is the aftermath of combat.
730
00:35:53,111 --> 00:35:55,613
Louis Beam understood
this veteran connection
731
00:35:55,613 --> 00:35:56,823
very, very well.
732
00:35:56,823 --> 00:35:58,450
He did this very specifically,
733
00:35:58,450 --> 00:36:01,286
going to military bases,
recruiting active-duty troops,
734
00:36:01,286 --> 00:36:02,620
recruiting veterans.
735
00:36:03,788 --> 00:36:04,956
These groups move
736
00:36:04,956 --> 00:36:06,875
from, you know,
the white robe and hood
737
00:36:06,875 --> 00:36:08,501
to camouflage fatigues,
738
00:36:08,501 --> 00:36:12,547
able to take in a new generation
of veterans coming home.
739
00:36:13,298 --> 00:36:15,300
Most notably, Timothy McVeigh.
740
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:17,635
[country music playing]
741
00:36:20,722 --> 00:36:23,099
[man] Tim McVeigh came
from a family
742
00:36:23,099 --> 00:36:25,477
that was literally
the salt of the earth.
743
00:36:25,477 --> 00:36:28,396
They had come over
in the 19th century
744
00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:30,357
to help with the canal
745
00:36:30,357 --> 00:36:34,027
and earned enough money
to buy some farmland.
746
00:36:34,027 --> 00:36:37,072
You had the dawn
of the automobile
747
00:36:37,072 --> 00:36:38,865
and Harrison Radiator,
748
00:36:38,865 --> 00:36:40,909
this sprawling plant
749
00:36:40,909 --> 00:36:45,789
where as many as 8,000 people
worked at one time.
750
00:36:45,789 --> 00:36:47,374
And that was the world
751
00:36:47,374 --> 00:36:50,335
that Bill McVeigh
was offering to his son.
752
00:36:51,795 --> 00:36:54,047
[Bill McVeigh]
All four houses we lived in,
753
00:36:54,047 --> 00:36:56,174
we always had
a pretty good-sized garden.
754
00:36:56,466 --> 00:36:58,259
We had a pool here.
755
00:36:58,259 --> 00:37:00,220
Sometimes in the summer,
I'd come home from work,
756
00:37:00,220 --> 00:37:02,514
there'd be 15 kids in the pool.
757
00:37:02,514 --> 00:37:04,391
Family right next door,
the McDermotts,
758
00:37:04,391 --> 00:37:06,643
they had a daughter
the same age as Jennifer,
759
00:37:06,643 --> 00:37:07,602
Mollie.
760
00:37:07,602 --> 00:37:09,646
They were good
everyday neighbors.
761
00:37:10,438 --> 00:37:13,858
He would play with us,
he would babysit us,
762
00:37:13,858 --> 00:37:15,276
he took us trick-or-treating.
763
00:37:15,276 --> 00:37:18,780
And so I've known
his family forever.
764
00:37:19,989 --> 00:37:23,576
I'm sure that the divorce
of his parents was hard.
765
00:37:23,576 --> 00:37:28,790
When the split occurred,
he chose to stay with his dad.
766
00:37:30,542 --> 00:37:34,504
[Herbeck] There was nobody that
McVeigh loved or admired more
767
00:37:34,504 --> 00:37:37,090
than his grandfather,
Ed McVeigh.
768
00:37:37,090 --> 00:37:38,550
He taught Tim McVeigh
769
00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:42,887
all about proper handling
of guns, how to use guns.
770
00:37:42,887 --> 00:37:47,308
I think he equated guns
with his beloved grandfather.
771
00:37:48,393 --> 00:37:49,686
[man] Tim McVeigh's father
772
00:37:49,686 --> 00:37:52,897
worked at a G.M. plant
for 30 years.
773
00:37:52,897 --> 00:37:54,482
Tim McVeigh's grandfather
774
00:37:54,482 --> 00:37:57,527
worked in the same plant
for 30 years.
775
00:37:57,527 --> 00:37:59,571
By the time McVeigh came along,
776
00:37:59,571 --> 00:38:03,283
that plant was shrinking
almost to nonexistence.
777
00:38:03,283 --> 00:38:07,162
The industrial decline
of the Buffalo area
778
00:38:07,162 --> 00:38:10,081
was a formative influence
on McVeigh.
779
00:38:10,498 --> 00:38:14,461
At the same time,
Terry Nichols was growing up
780
00:38:14,461 --> 00:38:18,923
on a small struggling farm
in the thumb of Michigan.
781
00:38:19,424 --> 00:38:24,262
And the farm crisis
was making it harder and harder
782
00:38:24,262 --> 00:38:26,431
for farmers like him to survive.
783
00:38:26,431 --> 00:38:30,393
So McVeigh and Nichols represent
784
00:38:30,393 --> 00:38:32,729
the crisis
in American agriculture
785
00:38:32,729 --> 00:38:35,106
and the crisis
in American industry
786
00:38:35,106 --> 00:38:37,442
to an almost perfect degree.
787
00:38:39,402 --> 00:38:40,737
[McDermott] I don't know
when the idea
788
00:38:40,737 --> 00:38:44,282
to go into the military
really came...
789
00:38:44,949 --> 00:38:50,497
but the first time I even sensed
Tim seeming different
790
00:38:50,497 --> 00:38:55,835
was after his time over
during the Gulf War.
791
00:38:55,835 --> 00:38:58,213
[Brokaw] The bombing
in Iraq began 24 hours ago.
792
00:38:58,213 --> 00:38:59,756
It is still going on.
793
00:38:59,756 --> 00:39:01,591
[rapid gunfire]
794
00:39:02,676 --> 00:39:04,803
[soldier] Watch your lane.
795
00:39:06,638 --> 00:39:08,473
[Herbeck] At Fort Benning,
796
00:39:08,473 --> 00:39:11,976
Terry Nichols became
one of McVeigh's best friends.
797
00:39:11,976 --> 00:39:17,649
He was very influential
on McVeigh's views of politics.
798
00:39:18,483 --> 00:39:21,611
McVeigh became close
to Michael Fortier,
799
00:39:21,611 --> 00:39:25,657
who would smoke dope
when he was out on patrol.
800
00:39:26,533 --> 00:39:30,704
One of the very first
experiences McVeigh had
801
00:39:30,704 --> 00:39:33,998
after joining the Army
was these drill sergeants...
802
00:39:34,791 --> 00:39:38,128
they would scream things like,
"Kill, kill, kill!"
803
00:39:40,005 --> 00:39:44,968
McVeigh became
a very skilled sharpshooter
804
00:39:44,968 --> 00:39:47,887
in the Bradley military vehicle.
805
00:39:49,014 --> 00:39:53,601
[Michel] In one instance,
he spotted two Iraqi soldiers,
806
00:39:53,601 --> 00:39:55,729
brought them into his sights.
807
00:39:58,189 --> 00:40:01,609
He said all he saw
was a red mist.
808
00:40:02,861 --> 00:40:05,822
He was proud of his kill.
He got a Bronze Star for it.
809
00:40:05,822 --> 00:40:08,992
But as this very short war
progressed,
810
00:40:08,992 --> 00:40:10,368
he saw the carnage
811
00:40:10,368 --> 00:40:13,872
from all of the bombs
that had been dropped.
812
00:40:13,872 --> 00:40:14,706
[explosion]
813
00:40:14,706 --> 00:40:16,458
[Michel] It was overkill to him.
814
00:40:16,458 --> 00:40:18,001
[explosions]
815
00:40:19,210 --> 00:40:22,672
This unit is trying to talk
the Iraqis into surrendering.
816
00:40:22,672 --> 00:40:24,841
- [man yelling over speaker]
- There are a group of Iraqis
817
00:40:24,841 --> 00:40:27,218
to the right
carrying white flags.
818
00:40:27,218 --> 00:40:29,846
Over there, a large number
of Iraqi tanks.
819
00:40:29,846 --> 00:40:32,599
[Boettcher] I've been
in a lot of wars.
820
00:40:32,599 --> 00:40:34,642
And wars and combat
821
00:40:34,642 --> 00:40:36,895
affect different people
different ways.
822
00:40:37,479 --> 00:40:41,733
I think what goes on
in a lot of people who leave war
823
00:40:41,733 --> 00:40:44,819
is that they had a purpose.
824
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,239
And the purpose in Desert Storm
825
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,241
was to take back Kuwait
826
00:40:50,241 --> 00:40:52,202
and defeat
Saddam Hussein's army.
827
00:40:52,202 --> 00:40:56,039
And that was a huge purpose,
a huge global purpose.
828
00:40:56,581 --> 00:40:58,750
Then you come back home, and...
829
00:40:59,542 --> 00:41:01,586
you might have trouble
finding a job,
830
00:41:01,586 --> 00:41:03,922
and you start
getting discouraged.
831
00:41:05,173 --> 00:41:07,258
Tim McVeigh and myself,
832
00:41:07,258 --> 00:41:10,095
we both have that title, veteran.
833
00:41:10,095 --> 00:41:12,430
We spend four, five, six,
seven, eight, nine,
834
00:41:12,430 --> 00:41:14,599
ten years of our life
serving our nation.
835
00:41:15,058 --> 00:41:16,559
Then when you get out
of the military,
836
00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:18,103
you come back
to the United States,
837
00:41:18,103 --> 00:41:21,523
and everyone's telling you
that you're wrong,
838
00:41:21,523 --> 00:41:24,025
you shouldn't be killing people,
we shouldn't be at war.
839
00:41:24,025 --> 00:41:28,697
[crowd chanting] No blood
for oil! No blood for oil!
840
00:41:28,697 --> 00:41:30,782
[Welch]
My daughter, Julie, demonstrated
841
00:41:30,782 --> 00:41:34,160
with a lot of other students
against the Gulf War.
842
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,956
And the results of that war
is actually the very thing
843
00:41:37,956 --> 00:41:41,876
that, uh, ended up
causing her-- her death.
844
00:41:41,876 --> 00:41:44,295
- [director] How do you mean?
- Well, because Tim McVeigh
845
00:41:44,295 --> 00:41:48,675
served in the Gulf War,
had PTSD.
846
00:41:49,217 --> 00:41:53,138
Those soldiers saw
Iraqis get shot in the back
847
00:41:53,138 --> 00:41:54,723
and saw tanks
848
00:41:54,723 --> 00:41:58,435
that actually buried
some Iraqi soldiers alive.
849
00:41:59,102 --> 00:42:02,230
They saw all of that angry stuff
and came back angry,
850
00:42:02,230 --> 00:42:03,982
angry young men.
851
00:42:05,817 --> 00:42:07,819
[Herbeck] After the war,
852
00:42:07,819 --> 00:42:11,573
McVeigh went
to this Green Beret tryout.
853
00:42:12,490 --> 00:42:16,369
He failed in his tryout
to become a Green Beret.
854
00:42:16,369 --> 00:42:19,497
That was a demoralizing thing.
855
00:42:19,497 --> 00:42:21,499
I think if he had succeeded
856
00:42:21,499 --> 00:42:24,002
and been selected
as a Green Beret,
857
00:42:24,002 --> 00:42:27,464
he probably would have been
a great killing machine
858
00:42:27,464 --> 00:42:29,632
for the U.S. government.
859
00:42:31,426 --> 00:42:33,219
[Michel] He comes home,
860
00:42:33,219 --> 00:42:35,972
and he has a nervous breakdown.
861
00:42:38,016 --> 00:42:40,018
He went over
to his grandfather's house
862
00:42:40,018 --> 00:42:43,730
in February a few months after
he'd been out of the military
863
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:48,860
in a pair of sweatpants
and just socks, no shirt.
864
00:42:48,860 --> 00:42:51,696
And Ed McVeigh
opens the front door
865
00:42:51,696 --> 00:42:54,824
and says, "Tim, Timmy,
what's going on here?"
866
00:42:56,618 --> 00:42:59,120
He says,
"I don't know, Grandpa."
867
00:43:01,706 --> 00:43:05,001
McVeigh having PTSD,
I think, helps to explain
868
00:43:05,001 --> 00:43:09,214
maybe the vulnerability,
the fragility of his thinking.
869
00:43:09,214 --> 00:43:12,425
He would live in his car,
he would sleep in his car.
870
00:43:12,884 --> 00:43:15,136
He would listen
to right-wing radio...
871
00:43:15,136 --> 00:43:16,471
[indistinct radio broadcast]
872
00:43:16,471 --> 00:43:18,932
[Wright] ...and go
from gun show to gun show.
873
00:43:20,934 --> 00:43:23,603
He was operating
as sort of a straw buyer.
874
00:43:23,603 --> 00:43:25,939
He was buying guns for people
875
00:43:25,939 --> 00:43:28,066
who didn't want
any kind of record
876
00:43:28,066 --> 00:43:31,194
or even name associated
with buying guns.
877
00:43:31,194 --> 00:43:34,614
And he knew that these people
were part of the insurgency.
878
00:43:35,824 --> 00:43:38,243
They're not just selling
weapons.
879
00:43:38,243 --> 00:43:40,078
They're selling ideology.
880
00:43:41,454 --> 00:43:42,997
[on recording]
I'm William Pierce,
881
00:43:42,997 --> 00:43:47,460
and I'll be reading my book,
The Turner Diaries, to you.
882
00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:49,421
Listen carefully.
883
00:43:49,421 --> 00:43:50,922
"How it shamed us,
884
00:43:50,922 --> 00:43:53,925
all that brave talk
by patriots.
885
00:43:53,925 --> 00:43:56,803
'The government will never
take my guns away.'
886
00:43:56,803 --> 00:43:59,097
And then nothing
but meek submission
887
00:43:59,097 --> 00:44:00,557
when it happened."
888
00:44:01,266 --> 00:44:04,602
[man] Timothy McVeigh used
this book as a Bible.
889
00:44:04,602 --> 00:44:07,814
Both The Turner Diaries
and-- and McVeigh
890
00:44:07,814 --> 00:44:09,566
targeted a federal building
891
00:44:09,566 --> 00:44:13,486
that had federal
law enforcement agents in it.
892
00:44:13,486 --> 00:44:15,363
Both used a truck bomb.
893
00:44:15,363 --> 00:44:20,452
Both used a mixture of fuel oil
and ammonium nitrate fertilizer.
894
00:44:21,077 --> 00:44:23,663
The one that strikes me
the most eerie
895
00:44:23,663 --> 00:44:26,207
is the fact
that the bomb that explodes
896
00:44:26,207 --> 00:44:30,337
and blows up the FBI building
in The Turner Diaries
897
00:44:30,337 --> 00:44:32,881
went off at 9:15 a.m.
898
00:44:32,881 --> 00:44:37,302
The bomb in Oklahoma City
went off at 9:02.
899
00:44:40,263 --> 00:44:44,225
He's got The Turner Diaries
rolling in the back of his head,
900
00:44:44,225 --> 00:44:45,769
his love of guns,
901
00:44:45,769 --> 00:44:50,065
and he's buying these videos
about things like Ruby Ridge.
902
00:44:51,649 --> 00:44:54,027
[indistinct chattering
over radio]
903
00:44:56,780 --> 00:44:58,406
[reporter]
Randy Weaver, a fugitive
904
00:44:58,406 --> 00:44:59,908
on a federal firearms charge,
905
00:44:59,908 --> 00:45:01,826
has been holed up
in a cabin near Naples
906
00:45:01,826 --> 00:45:03,370
for more than a year.
907
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,916
Ruby Ridge came about
because of shady dealings
908
00:45:07,916 --> 00:45:09,959
by the federal government.
909
00:45:09,959 --> 00:45:12,671
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
and Firearms agents
910
00:45:12,671 --> 00:45:15,256
were trying to recruit
Randy Weaver
911
00:45:15,256 --> 00:45:17,884
to be an informant
on the militia movement
912
00:45:17,884 --> 00:45:21,179
by having another informant
sell him a shotgun
913
00:45:21,179 --> 00:45:24,224
that was a quarter of an inch
shy of the legal limit.
914
00:45:25,392 --> 00:45:27,227
That looks a lot
like entrapment.
915
00:45:28,186 --> 00:45:30,772
[reporter] With the sudden
appearance of military hardware,
916
00:45:30,772 --> 00:45:32,565
his one-man stand
against the law
917
00:45:32,565 --> 00:45:34,693
is suddenly taking on
the appearance
918
00:45:34,693 --> 00:45:37,195
- of a full-blown war.
- [gunshot]
919
00:45:37,195 --> 00:45:39,781
[reporter 1] A federal agent
has been shot and killed.
920
00:45:39,781 --> 00:45:42,742
[reporter 2] Randy Weaver's
13-year-old son died
921
00:45:42,742 --> 00:45:44,661
during the initial shootout
Friday.
922
00:45:44,661 --> 00:45:47,247
His blood is on all your hands!
You...
923
00:45:47,247 --> 00:45:50,333
Federal Marshals shot my son,
Samuel, in the back
924
00:45:50,333 --> 00:45:51,543
and killed him.
925
00:45:52,377 --> 00:45:53,670
He was running home to me.
926
00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:55,672
His last words were,
"I'm coming, Dad."
927
00:45:56,548 --> 00:46:02,095
The FBI adopted military rules
of engagement at Ruby Ridge.
928
00:46:03,221 --> 00:46:06,141
The day after Sammy Weaver
was shot...
929
00:46:06,141 --> 00:46:07,142
[gunshot]
930
00:46:07,142 --> 00:46:10,186
[Wright]
...a sniper fired at Randy.
931
00:46:10,186 --> 00:46:11,187
[gunshot]
932
00:46:11,187 --> 00:46:12,939
[Wright]
The bullet went into the cabin
933
00:46:12,939 --> 00:46:16,860
and hit his wife, Vicki Weaver,
in the head and killed her.
934
00:46:19,571 --> 00:46:21,114
Later, an investigation
was done,
935
00:46:21,114 --> 00:46:24,909
and the Department of Justice
settled for $3.1 million
936
00:46:24,909 --> 00:46:26,244
for unlawful death
937
00:46:26,244 --> 00:46:28,455
of Sammy Weaver
and Vicki Weaver.
938
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,500
[reporter] We just got an update
from federal authorities.
939
00:46:33,501 --> 00:46:35,378
Randy's in good health.
940
00:46:35,378 --> 00:46:38,381
Unfortunately, Vicki is dead.
941
00:46:38,381 --> 00:46:39,758
[people gasping]
942
00:46:39,758 --> 00:46:42,969
[ominous music playing]
943
00:46:42,969 --> 00:46:46,890
[Beam] This time the federals
came for Randy Weaver.
944
00:46:46,890 --> 00:46:49,642
Next time,
they may come for you.
945
00:46:49,642 --> 00:46:51,102
[static over radio]
946
00:46:51,102 --> 00:46:52,937
[Herbeck] After Ruby Ridge,
947
00:46:52,937 --> 00:46:57,942
McVeigh was on an odyssey
to nowhere for about two years.
948
00:47:00,362 --> 00:47:03,782
These ideas
would just be turned over
949
00:47:03,782 --> 00:47:06,076
in his head again and again.
950
00:47:06,576 --> 00:47:08,620
[Michel] His car was
an old Chevy.
951
00:47:08,620 --> 00:47:11,206
He nicknamed it
the Road Warrior.
952
00:47:11,206 --> 00:47:13,249
He reconnects
with his Army buddies,
953
00:47:13,249 --> 00:47:16,711
Michael Fortier
and Terry Nichols.
954
00:47:16,711 --> 00:47:19,798
But there's a lot of alone time.
955
00:47:19,798 --> 00:47:22,592
He's manufacturing his arguments
956
00:47:22,592 --> 00:47:24,886
of why he hates the government.
957
00:47:28,223 --> 00:47:31,017
[Clinton] It may not be popular
in West Virginia or Arkansas,
958
00:47:31,017 --> 00:47:32,602
where half the people have
959
00:47:32,602 --> 00:47:34,229
a hunting or a fishing license
or both,
960
00:47:34,229 --> 00:47:36,231
but I think we ought to pass
the Brady Bill
961
00:47:36,231 --> 00:47:40,151
and require a waiting period
before people can get a handgun.
962
00:47:40,151 --> 00:47:43,071
I felt that
if it was ever gonna be done,
963
00:47:43,071 --> 00:47:47,033
I was in the best position,
because I grew up in Arkansas.
964
00:47:47,033 --> 00:47:49,703
I had a .22 when I was 10.
965
00:47:49,703 --> 00:47:52,580
I had a .410 shotgun
when I was 14.
966
00:47:52,580 --> 00:47:54,332
I grew up in the culture.
967
00:47:54,874 --> 00:47:56,543
[gunshots]
968
00:47:56,543 --> 00:47:59,004
[Limbaugh] There's only
one thing you need to know.
969
00:47:59,004 --> 00:48:01,840
The Democrats want to do away
with the Second Amendment.
970
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,261
They want to end up
registering every gun
971
00:48:06,261 --> 00:48:08,763
and its owner in this country.
972
00:48:09,264 --> 00:48:10,807
And their ultimate objective
973
00:48:10,807 --> 00:48:13,435
is to see to it
that nobody has any.
974
00:48:20,692 --> 00:48:22,652
[birds chirping]
975
00:48:27,157 --> 00:48:30,535
[Wright] Some people forget
that Tim McVeigh was at Waco.
976
00:48:32,370 --> 00:48:34,414
He was handing out
anti-government pamphlets.
977
00:48:34,414 --> 00:48:37,208
He was carrying copies
of The Turner Diaries.
978
00:48:37,208 --> 00:48:40,295
He was talking to people
during the standoff.
979
00:48:42,339 --> 00:48:45,133
If you're a true Christian,
and you believe the truth,
980
00:48:45,133 --> 00:48:47,010
and you know the truth,
the truth will set you free.
981
00:48:47,010 --> 00:48:49,512
[Ricks] A group called
the Branch Davidians,
982
00:48:49,512 --> 00:48:50,680
it was an offshoot
983
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,515
of the Seventh-day Adventist
Church.
984
00:48:53,183 --> 00:48:55,727
About 100 people
headed up by a gentleman
985
00:48:55,727 --> 00:48:58,313
by the name of David Koresh.
986
00:48:58,313 --> 00:49:00,899
He predicted the end
of the world was near,
987
00:49:00,899 --> 00:49:04,027
that he was the Second Coming
of Jesus Christ,
988
00:49:04,027 --> 00:49:06,237
the apocalypse
was going to happen,
989
00:49:06,237 --> 00:49:07,697
and it was going to start there
990
00:49:07,697 --> 00:49:09,741
with a battle
on the plains of Texas.
991
00:49:10,241 --> 00:49:12,327
- [reporter] You have guns?
- It makes nobody's business
992
00:49:12,327 --> 00:49:15,538
whether we have a gun or not
at this place.
993
00:49:15,538 --> 00:49:17,957
[Ricks] The ATF had information
994
00:49:17,957 --> 00:49:19,376
that there were
automatic weapons,
995
00:49:19,376 --> 00:49:22,170
they had grenades there.
And as a result,
996
00:49:22,170 --> 00:49:27,425
they were gonna launch an attack
on the Branch Davidian compound.
997
00:49:27,425 --> 00:49:30,553
Get my battery, John.
Get my battery behind the bus.
998
00:49:30,553 --> 00:49:32,013
[agents chattering indistinctly]
999
00:49:32,013 --> 00:49:34,683
The ATF wanted to conduct
a paramilitary raid.
1000
00:49:34,683 --> 00:49:39,104
They had multiple opportunities
to arrest David Koresh.
1001
00:49:40,063 --> 00:49:42,107
He jogged up and down
Double EE Ranch Road
1002
00:49:42,107 --> 00:49:44,526
right in front
of these surveillance houses.
1003
00:49:44,984 --> 00:49:46,695
They could've grabbed him then.
1004
00:49:46,695 --> 00:49:48,780
They didn't want to arrest him.
1005
00:49:48,780 --> 00:49:51,241
They wanted a big show.
1006
00:49:51,616 --> 00:49:52,867
And it backfired on them.
1007
00:49:52,867 --> 00:49:54,703
[gunfire]
1008
00:49:55,537 --> 00:49:57,288
[dogs barking, yelping]
1009
00:49:57,288 --> 00:49:58,873
The ATF fired the first shot,
1010
00:49:58,873 --> 00:50:02,335
shooting the dogs that were
outside guarding the property.
1011
00:50:04,295 --> 00:50:06,006
And then it erupted
into gunfire.
1012
00:50:06,006 --> 00:50:08,091
[gunshots]
1013
00:50:08,091 --> 00:50:10,176
[Ricks] ATF was immediately
pinned down.
1014
00:50:10,176 --> 00:50:12,095
[gunfire continues]
1015
00:50:13,304 --> 00:50:15,557
[Ricks] Four of their agents
were killed.
1016
00:50:16,016 --> 00:50:17,809
Sixteen were wounded.
1017
00:50:17,809 --> 00:50:20,645
Five Davidians were killed
that day.
1018
00:50:20,645 --> 00:50:24,482
The Attorney General says
that FBI should take over
1019
00:50:24,482 --> 00:50:26,317
and try
to get this thing resolved.
1020
00:50:26,735 --> 00:50:29,654
I was dispatched down there
to do the press conferences.
1021
00:50:29,654 --> 00:50:31,906
We're dealing with people
who are very committed
1022
00:50:31,906 --> 00:50:33,658
to what they're doing.
1023
00:50:35,326 --> 00:50:38,496
[Ricks] And we ended up
spending 51 days there.
1024
00:50:40,707 --> 00:50:42,125
[Wright] I actually came here
1025
00:50:42,125 --> 00:50:45,086
about three weeks
into the standoff.
1026
00:50:45,086 --> 00:50:47,339
They wouldn't let anybody closer
than, say,
1027
00:50:47,339 --> 00:50:50,300
maybe a mile from here.
They had cordoned it off.
1028
00:50:51,009 --> 00:50:52,552
A lot of the people
who showed up
1029
00:50:52,552 --> 00:50:54,304
were far-right patriots.
1030
00:50:54,304 --> 00:50:56,306
They weren't aligned with, say,
1031
00:50:56,306 --> 00:50:59,309
Davidian religious beliefs
or sentiments.
1032
00:50:59,309 --> 00:51:03,521
You have attempted to cover up
the FBI and ATF crimes here.
1033
00:51:04,314 --> 00:51:06,024
[Wright]
It was already taking place,
1034
00:51:06,024 --> 00:51:07,567
that co-optation of Waco
1035
00:51:07,567 --> 00:51:09,861
for the far-right
patriot movement.
1036
00:51:10,528 --> 00:51:12,864
[Belew] Waco is not
a white power community.
1037
00:51:12,864 --> 00:51:14,991
It is a multiracial community.
1038
00:51:14,991 --> 00:51:16,201
The white power movement
1039
00:51:16,201 --> 00:51:18,036
doesn't care about that
very much.
1040
00:51:18,036 --> 00:51:19,496
And the compound itself,
1041
00:51:19,496 --> 00:51:21,373
because this goes on
for so long,
1042
00:51:21,373 --> 00:51:23,375
becomes a site
where white power activists
1043
00:51:23,375 --> 00:51:25,001
can organize
and talk to each other.
1044
00:51:25,001 --> 00:51:27,921
McVeigh travels
to the Waco site.
1045
00:51:27,921 --> 00:51:29,798
Just, uh...
I just arrived today.
1046
00:51:31,383 --> 00:51:33,760
Somebody told me a lot
of people would be scared
1047
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:35,553
to put something on like this.
1048
00:51:35,553 --> 00:51:37,722
[rock music playing]
1049
00:51:37,722 --> 00:51:39,391
[Wright] Tim said to me,
1050
00:51:39,391 --> 00:51:41,559
"The government is at war
with us."
1051
00:51:42,227 --> 00:51:43,728
He kept talking about this war.
1052
00:51:43,728 --> 00:51:47,065
And I wasn't even privy to--
to this narrative or story.
1053
00:51:47,065 --> 00:51:49,609
So I ask him
to explain it to me.
1054
00:51:49,609 --> 00:51:52,237
And he tells me
that in the early '80s,
1055
00:51:52,237 --> 00:51:55,281
the Reagan administration pushes
for a military role
1056
00:51:55,281 --> 00:51:56,741
in drug enforcement.
1057
00:51:57,158 --> 00:51:58,660
[Reagan] We waged a good fight.
1058
00:51:58,660 --> 00:52:00,036
The military forces
1059
00:52:00,036 --> 00:52:03,039
have dramatically reduced
drug use by 67 percent.
1060
00:52:03,039 --> 00:52:05,750
[Wright] In order
for civilian law enforcement
1061
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:07,335
to get military support,
1062
00:52:07,335 --> 00:52:10,755
they would have to show what's
called a drug nexus at Waco.
1063
00:52:10,755 --> 00:52:13,591
The ATF manufactured
1064
00:52:13,591 --> 00:52:15,677
a drug nexus
that-- that wasn't there.
1065
00:52:15,677 --> 00:52:18,763
They claimed that
Branch Davidians had a meth lab.
1066
00:52:20,724 --> 00:52:24,602
All those helicopters were part
of the military support.
1067
00:52:24,602 --> 00:52:26,479
[Bryant Gumbel] It's day 33
of that cult standoff
1068
00:52:26,479 --> 00:52:28,231
with federal authorities
near Waco...
1069
00:52:28,231 --> 00:52:29,858
[reporter 1] Discussions about
a surrender have slowed.
1070
00:52:29,858 --> 00:52:32,193
[reporter 2] All day long,
reinforcements were brought in
1071
00:52:32,193 --> 00:52:34,404
from as far away as Fort Hood.
1072
00:52:34,404 --> 00:52:37,323
[Wright] I think the ATF saw
a political opportunity
1073
00:52:37,323 --> 00:52:40,618
in the election of Bill Clinton,
who ran on gun control,
1074
00:52:40,618 --> 00:52:44,330
to expand its operation
and expand its reputation.
1075
00:52:45,331 --> 00:52:47,792
[Clinton] I was really torn
by Waco.
1076
00:52:47,792 --> 00:52:51,004
The FBI kept pushing for action.
1077
00:52:51,004 --> 00:52:53,381
And they acted like
this would be,
1078
00:52:53,381 --> 00:52:56,009
you know,
not too difficult to do.
1079
00:52:56,009 --> 00:52:58,261
And I got it, but I mean,
the truth was
1080
00:52:58,261 --> 00:53:01,139
they were frustrated
by being defied.
1081
00:53:01,514 --> 00:53:04,559
Sometimes the right strategy
is to wait.
1082
00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:06,436
And I told them the story
of what we did
1083
00:53:06,436 --> 00:53:08,897
with the Covenant, the Sword,
and the Arm of the Lord
1084
00:53:08,897 --> 00:53:10,065
in Arkansas.
1085
00:53:10,357 --> 00:53:11,649
But they countered,
1086
00:53:11,649 --> 00:53:14,319
and this is what really mattered
to Janet Reno,
1087
00:53:14,319 --> 00:53:18,198
with the prospect that Koresh
and his inner circle
1088
00:53:18,198 --> 00:53:21,326
were abusing women and children.
1089
00:53:21,868 --> 00:53:23,244
Finally, I told them
1090
00:53:23,244 --> 00:53:25,288
they should go look
at the record of what we did,
1091
00:53:25,705 --> 00:53:27,499
but I would leave the decision
up to them,
1092
00:53:27,499 --> 00:53:30,669
and if they decided to do it,
I would support them.
1093
00:53:30,669 --> 00:53:33,380
In Waco, Texas,
the FBI has moved
1094
00:53:33,380 --> 00:53:35,340
to a new and more active stage.
1095
00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:38,426
An armored vehicle
began punching holes.
1096
00:53:38,426 --> 00:53:41,930
They have been filling
the compound with tear gas.
1097
00:53:43,264 --> 00:53:45,517
[Ricks] A little bit after noon,
1098
00:53:45,517 --> 00:53:49,479
they ended up setting fire
to the entire compound.
1099
00:53:51,231 --> 00:53:52,691
[reporter] Here's another angle.
1100
00:53:52,691 --> 00:53:55,735
You can see the black smoke
behind us. This is horrible.
1101
00:53:56,361 --> 00:53:57,862
[Ricks] And I was told
by headquarters
1102
00:53:57,862 --> 00:54:01,032
I had to go back
and do a final press conference.
1103
00:54:01,032 --> 00:54:03,201
I said,
"What am I supposed to say?
1104
00:54:03,201 --> 00:54:04,369
There's nobody left."
1105
00:54:04,744 --> 00:54:07,372
I have been asked
to read a statement
1106
00:54:07,372 --> 00:54:10,041
from the director of the FBI.
1107
00:54:10,041 --> 00:54:12,377
[Ricks] I was trying
to comfort people,
1108
00:54:12,377 --> 00:54:15,547
but to see it all collapse
was just overwhelming.
1109
00:54:21,386 --> 00:54:23,596
[Michel] McVeigh is standing
in the parlor
1110
00:54:23,596 --> 00:54:26,766
of this old farmhouse
that James Nichols owns,
1111
00:54:27,350 --> 00:54:30,228
watching this live image
of Waco burning,
1112
00:54:30,228 --> 00:54:32,564
and tears are running
down his eyes,
1113
00:54:32,564 --> 00:54:37,736
and he's also thinking about
his experience in the U.S. Army.
1114
00:54:39,529 --> 00:54:41,072
[Herbeck]
It really bothered McVeigh
1115
00:54:41,072 --> 00:54:44,242
that the same
Bradley fighting vehicles
1116
00:54:44,242 --> 00:54:46,786
that he had fought in
in the Persian War
1117
00:54:46,786 --> 00:54:50,165
were being used
against the people at Waco.
1118
00:54:50,874 --> 00:54:54,586
That was the turning point
for McVeigh.
1119
00:54:54,586 --> 00:54:57,589
He said
in that very moment he decided
1120
00:54:57,589 --> 00:55:01,468
he was going to commit
an act of terrorism.
1121
00:55:01,885 --> 00:55:03,887
[somber music playing]
1122
00:55:08,558 --> 00:55:10,560
[Wright] After Ruby Ridge
and Waco,
1123
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,521
we had this mass mobilization
of militias.
1124
00:55:13,521 --> 00:55:15,940
[speaking indistinctly]
1125
00:55:15,940 --> 00:55:17,359
[gunshot]
1126
00:55:17,776 --> 00:55:19,903
[Wright]
This thing just really explodes.
1127
00:55:19,903 --> 00:55:21,988
[rapid gunfire]
1128
00:55:23,573 --> 00:55:26,326
The critical issue is guns.
1129
00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:31,664
He became obsessed with the idea
1130
00:55:31,664 --> 00:55:35,210
the Democratic Party
and Bill Clinton were scheming
1131
00:55:35,210 --> 00:55:37,712
to take away
Americans' right to guns.
1132
00:55:37,712 --> 00:55:40,590
[Clinton] McVeigh told
a lot of people
1133
00:55:40,590 --> 00:55:42,634
that he was just furious at me.
1134
00:55:42,634 --> 00:55:46,137
He really hated
the Assault Weapons Ban.
1135
00:55:46,137 --> 00:55:48,306
It was the Assault Weapons Ban,
1136
00:55:48,306 --> 00:55:52,018
just as much as Waco
and Ruby Ridge,
1137
00:55:52,018 --> 00:55:54,896
that motivated McVeigh
to bomb the Murrah Building.
1138
00:55:54,896 --> 00:55:57,816
We will finally ban
these assault weapons
1139
00:55:57,816 --> 00:55:58,858
from our street
1140
00:55:58,858 --> 00:56:02,112
that have no purpose
other than to kill.
1141
00:56:03,863 --> 00:56:05,782
[static over radio]
1142
00:56:05,782 --> 00:56:08,118
[ominous music playing]
1143
00:56:13,456 --> 00:56:15,875
[Michel] McVeigh charged
from one end of the country
1144
00:56:15,875 --> 00:56:17,544
to the other.
1145
00:56:18,294 --> 00:56:20,338
Finally decided
to build the bomb
1146
00:56:20,338 --> 00:56:21,715
after months of buying
1147
00:56:21,715 --> 00:56:24,384
50-pound bags
of ammonium nitrate
1148
00:56:24,384 --> 00:56:28,555
at weed-and-seed stores
across the Midwest...
1149
00:56:29,347 --> 00:56:32,892
buying racing-car fuel
down in Texas.
1150
00:56:33,184 --> 00:56:35,020
[static over radio]
1151
00:56:36,896 --> 00:56:39,232
[Michel] He ping-ponged
back and forth
1152
00:56:39,232 --> 00:56:41,026
from Kingman, Arizona,
1153
00:56:41,026 --> 00:56:44,237
to Decker, Michigan,
to Buffalo, New York.
1154
00:56:44,237 --> 00:56:45,947
[suspenseful music playing]
1155
00:56:52,412 --> 00:56:53,747
[Herbeck] McVeigh told us,
1156
00:56:53,747 --> 00:56:56,708
"Nichols and Fortier helped me."
1157
00:56:57,542 --> 00:56:59,878
He said,
"I was the driving force
1158
00:56:59,878 --> 00:57:01,087
behind all this.
1159
00:57:01,504 --> 00:57:03,631
It was my plan.
It was my crime."
1160
00:57:04,716 --> 00:57:06,676
He came up with an action plan.
1161
00:57:06,676 --> 00:57:08,887
[suspenseful music playing]
1162
00:57:12,599 --> 00:57:15,060
[Michel] In Kansas, at the lake,
1163
00:57:15,393 --> 00:57:16,895
the day before the bombing,
1164
00:57:16,895 --> 00:57:20,065
with some coercion
to get Terry Nichols there,
1165
00:57:20,065 --> 00:57:22,067
they build the bomb.
1166
00:57:22,442 --> 00:57:24,986
[Herbeck] McVeigh said
Nichols got cold feet
1167
00:57:24,986 --> 00:57:27,405
and McVeigh threatened him.
1168
00:57:27,697 --> 00:57:29,908
That's why
he went along with it.
1169
00:57:37,123 --> 00:57:40,418
[Michel] April 19th,
he gets back on the interstate,
1170
00:57:40,418 --> 00:57:42,087
traveling alone.
1171
00:57:44,547 --> 00:57:45,924
[static over radio]
1172
00:57:45,924 --> 00:57:47,759
[Koernke] The enemy
has many resources
1173
00:57:47,759 --> 00:57:49,761
and assets at their disposal.
1174
00:57:50,303 --> 00:57:52,931
The best one
we have here is you.
1175
00:57:53,390 --> 00:57:55,100
[explosion]
1176
00:57:55,100 --> 00:57:56,768
[glass shattering]
1177
00:57:57,394 --> 00:57:58,937
[helicopter whirring]
1178
00:57:58,937 --> 00:58:00,522
[car alarm blaring]
1179
00:58:01,481 --> 00:58:04,275
[sirens wailing]
1180
00:58:04,275 --> 00:58:06,444
[Herbeck] McVeigh told us
that it was like
1181
00:58:06,444 --> 00:58:09,155
the Death Star in Star Wars.
1182
00:58:09,155 --> 00:58:12,200
He said, "There were all kinds
of people in that Death Star
1183
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:16,079
who were just like secretaries
and weren't leaders.
1184
00:58:16,079 --> 00:58:17,872
They were killed too.
1185
00:58:18,665 --> 00:58:22,377
But people all applauded
when the Death Star blew up."
1186
00:58:22,377 --> 00:58:25,505
He said, "Yes,
innocent people had to die,
1187
00:58:25,505 --> 00:58:27,590
but that's the way it goes."
1188
00:58:27,590 --> 00:58:30,218
He calls them collateral damage.
1189
00:58:30,218 --> 00:58:32,512
[somber music playing]
1190
00:58:52,782 --> 00:58:54,492
[man] I walked over
and introduced myself.
1191
00:58:54,492 --> 00:58:55,910
I said, "Mr. McVeigh,
1192
00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:57,704
I've been appointed
to represent you."
1193
00:58:57,704 --> 00:59:00,290
And I think I said,
"I'm from Enid, Oklahoma."
1194
00:59:00,290 --> 00:59:04,336
He shook my hand and said,
"I heard you were coming."
1195
00:59:04,336 --> 00:59:09,090
He explained very candidly
1196
00:59:09,507 --> 00:59:12,177
why he did
what he was accused of.
1197
00:59:12,552 --> 00:59:15,513
He exhibited some pride
1198
00:59:15,513 --> 00:59:18,350
in that he had managed
to carry it off.
1199
00:59:20,060 --> 00:59:23,772
He wanted a defense
based on necessity.
1200
00:59:24,439 --> 00:59:26,191
Said, "I had to do it
1201
00:59:26,191 --> 00:59:29,235
because they were going to kill
other American citizens.
1202
00:59:29,235 --> 00:59:31,112
They had to be taught a lesson."
1203
00:59:31,112 --> 00:59:32,822
And I said, "Well, Tim...
1204
00:59:33,365 --> 00:59:34,991
tell me why it was necessary
1205
00:59:34,991 --> 00:59:37,786
to kill children
under the age of six."
1206
00:59:38,244 --> 00:59:40,830
He said, "Well,
there were children at Waco."
1207
00:59:41,539 --> 00:59:44,959
And I said,
"Well, that may be true,
1208
00:59:44,959 --> 00:59:47,796
but that's not
an explanation of the necessity.
1209
00:59:47,796 --> 00:59:50,215
What that is is revenge."
1210
00:59:50,215 --> 00:59:52,133
After that wouldn't go anywhere,
1211
00:59:52,133 --> 00:59:55,762
what I was trying to do was
to raise a reasonable doubt.
1212
00:59:55,762 --> 01:00:00,141
We could argue to the jury
the government hasn't proven it.
1213
01:00:00,141 --> 01:00:01,518
I'm hopeful
1214
01:00:01,518 --> 01:00:04,729
that no one will embarrass
the state of Oklahoma
1215
01:00:04,729 --> 01:00:08,191
by doing anything
to any party in this case
1216
01:00:08,191 --> 01:00:10,985
which would turn this
into a three-ring circus.
1217
01:00:10,985 --> 01:00:12,737
It couldn't be seen
as a show trial.
1218
01:00:12,737 --> 01:00:16,950
It had to be seen as lawyers
vigorously representing him.
1219
01:00:16,950 --> 01:00:20,245
My opposite number
was Merrick Garland.
1220
01:00:20,995 --> 01:00:23,456
He's been detained without bond.
1221
01:00:23,456 --> 01:00:24,749
[Toobin] It's important
to recognize
1222
01:00:24,749 --> 01:00:26,626
how Merrick Garland structured
1223
01:00:26,626 --> 01:00:29,838
the criminal investigation
and trial of McVeigh.
1224
01:00:29,838 --> 01:00:31,923
...testified that the cause
of the explosion
1225
01:00:31,923 --> 01:00:34,092
at the Murrah Building
was a bomb
1226
01:00:34,092 --> 01:00:36,803
that was placed
inside a Ryder Truck.
1227
01:00:36,803 --> 01:00:40,765
He had a prosecutor's view
in the sense
1228
01:00:40,765 --> 01:00:46,479
that he wanted to keep the trial
narrow and focused and limited,
1229
01:00:46,479 --> 01:00:48,940
uh, to what was needed
to make the case
1230
01:00:48,940 --> 01:00:51,568
against first McVeigh
and then Nichols.
1231
01:00:51,568 --> 01:00:53,528
[reporter] Can you give us
any estimate
1232
01:00:53,528 --> 01:00:55,655
of how many people
you still expect
1233
01:00:55,655 --> 01:00:58,283
to bring additional charges
against in this case?
1234
01:00:58,283 --> 01:01:00,452
No, I'm sorry.
I really have to limit myself
1235
01:01:00,452 --> 01:01:01,828
to what happened
in the hearing today.
1236
01:01:01,828 --> 01:01:04,205
[man] Merrick always kind of
kept his finger
1237
01:01:04,205 --> 01:01:06,249
on the pulse of the case.
1238
01:01:06,249 --> 01:01:08,043
You know, I'm not religious,
1239
01:01:08,043 --> 01:01:10,962
but I did feel
during that period of time
1240
01:01:10,962 --> 01:01:12,797
like, "Oh, this is
why I'm here."
1241
01:01:12,797 --> 01:01:17,135
I mean, I really felt like
I was doing something
1242
01:01:17,135 --> 01:01:19,888
that mattered
and that was worth doing.
1243
01:01:21,264 --> 01:01:23,641
[woman] On April 19th, 1995,
the bomb went off,
1244
01:01:23,641 --> 01:01:25,268
I was in the office.
1245
01:01:27,729 --> 01:01:29,189
DOJ wanted to show
1246
01:01:29,189 --> 01:01:33,151
that the country could give
a fair trial and due process
1247
01:01:33,151 --> 01:01:34,319
to these individuals.
1248
01:01:34,861 --> 01:01:37,030
This was right after
the O.J. Simpson case,
1249
01:01:37,030 --> 01:01:41,409
where there was such fanfare
and media attention.
1250
01:01:41,409 --> 01:01:42,744
Merrick wanted this
1251
01:01:42,744 --> 01:01:45,121
to be all about the crime
that had occurred
1252
01:01:45,121 --> 01:01:47,540
and holding
the individuals accountable.
1253
01:01:47,540 --> 01:01:49,876
[dramatic music playing]
1254
01:01:51,252 --> 01:01:55,674
[director] In the original
indictment itself, it did say
1255
01:01:55,674 --> 01:01:58,009
Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols,
and "others unknown."
1256
01:01:58,009 --> 01:02:00,011
[Goelman] Why am I so confident
we got--?
1257
01:02:00,011 --> 01:02:01,554
[director] Why are you
so confident?
1258
01:02:01,554 --> 01:02:04,391
Um, the thoroughness
of the investigation.
1259
01:02:04,391 --> 01:02:06,810
FBI interviewed so many people
that we could find.
1260
01:02:06,810 --> 01:02:10,063
If you wanted to, you know,
find somebody who said that,
1261
01:02:10,063 --> 01:02:12,524
you know,
Madonna did the bombing,
1262
01:02:12,524 --> 01:02:14,025
you could find
someone like that.
1263
01:02:16,277 --> 01:02:19,739
Both Nichols and McVeigh
had big defense teams
1264
01:02:19,739 --> 01:02:21,700
at taxpayer expense.
1265
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,869
And I think
their strategies differed.
1266
01:02:24,869 --> 01:02:28,707
Stephen Jones had this whole
public relations strategy,
1267
01:02:28,707 --> 01:02:30,875
where he, you know,
traveled around the world
1268
01:02:30,875 --> 01:02:32,877
to try to find
these "others unknown."
1269
01:02:32,877 --> 01:02:37,882
[Jones] To say that there were
others unknown was true.
1270
01:02:37,882 --> 01:02:40,218
We were accused
of being conspiracy theorists,
1271
01:02:40,218 --> 01:02:43,513
but it was the government that
alleged there was a conspiracy.
1272
01:02:43,513 --> 01:02:45,140
We were just simply arguing over
1273
01:02:45,140 --> 01:02:48,018
how large was the conspiracy
and who was there.
1274
01:02:49,602 --> 01:02:55,734
Tim wanted to be seen as,
"This was the perfect mission.
1275
01:02:55,734 --> 01:02:58,903
The building was destroyed,
people were killed,
1276
01:02:58,903 --> 01:03:00,947
there will be a revolution.
1277
01:03:00,947 --> 01:03:03,908
I have set the revolution
in motion.
1278
01:03:04,826 --> 01:03:08,079
Me. No one else, me.
Me, myself, and I."
1279
01:03:08,663 --> 01:03:11,082
It took probably about...
1280
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:15,754
seven or eight days
for me to start realizing
1281
01:03:15,754 --> 01:03:17,255
that he was lying.
1282
01:03:17,630 --> 01:03:19,090
Repeatedly.
1283
01:03:19,090 --> 01:03:21,926
Probably the first one, I said,
"Tim, you've told me
1284
01:03:21,926 --> 01:03:24,429
that no one else is involved.
1285
01:03:24,429 --> 01:03:26,514
So why is the government talking
1286
01:03:26,514 --> 01:03:28,391
to Michael and Lori Fortier?
1287
01:03:28,850 --> 01:03:31,186
What do they know
1288
01:03:31,603 --> 01:03:33,146
that we don't know?"
1289
01:03:34,064 --> 01:03:36,775
He didn't want to reveal
who others were.
1290
01:03:36,775 --> 01:03:38,610
He didn't want to solve
the mystery.
1291
01:03:38,610 --> 01:03:40,945
[suspenseful music playing]
1292
01:03:43,948 --> 01:03:46,618
[Sanders] It was actually
my husband, Glenn,
1293
01:03:46,618 --> 01:03:48,828
who started asking questions.
1294
01:03:48,828 --> 01:03:50,121
It's consumed our life.
1295
01:03:50,121 --> 01:03:53,958
Our life took a 180-degree turn
that day.
1296
01:03:53,958 --> 01:03:57,629
And it probably will never be
the same again.
1297
01:03:58,505 --> 01:04:01,508
[Sanders] After the bombing,
I was so broken.
1298
01:04:02,634 --> 01:04:03,760
For the first few weeks,
1299
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,137
I probably sat in a chair
and cried.
1300
01:04:06,721 --> 01:04:09,557
But when I got out of the chair,
1301
01:04:09,557 --> 01:04:11,309
we had a dinner at our home
1302
01:04:11,309 --> 01:04:13,728
for the families
that had lost their children.
1303
01:04:13,728 --> 01:04:15,480
[children laughing]
1304
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:16,856
[Sanders] The saddest of times.
1305
01:04:16,856 --> 01:04:20,110
You get 19 families
that lost their children.
1306
01:04:21,152 --> 01:04:22,904
One of the young mothers said
1307
01:04:22,904 --> 01:04:25,824
when she dropped her boy off
that morning,
1308
01:04:25,824 --> 01:04:29,494
that she had seen
the bomb squad downtown.
1309
01:04:29,994 --> 01:04:33,206
We're going, "How do you know
it was the bomb squad?"
1310
01:04:33,707 --> 01:04:34,833
Finally, very indignantly,
1311
01:04:34,833 --> 01:04:37,293
she said
they had big blue letters.
1312
01:04:37,919 --> 01:04:39,963
Then we found
a newspaper article
1313
01:04:39,963 --> 01:04:42,173
from The Panola Watchman.
1314
01:04:43,842 --> 01:04:44,968
It was an interview
1315
01:04:44,968 --> 01:04:46,845
about this whole office
full of people.
1316
01:04:47,345 --> 01:04:51,141
They had been watching
the bomb squad in the alleyway.
1317
01:04:52,559 --> 01:04:57,063
The next day my husband, Glenn,
goes to the fire station.
1318
01:04:57,564 --> 01:05:01,526
The fire chief said,
"Oh, no, sir, we had no idea."
1319
01:05:02,068 --> 01:05:04,696
As my husband's leaving,
the dispatcher there, he says,
1320
01:05:04,696 --> 01:05:06,823
"I'm not going to lie
for anybody."
1321
01:05:06,823 --> 01:05:09,034
He said, "We got a memo
in this office last week
1322
01:05:09,034 --> 01:05:11,369
to be on high terrorist alert."
1323
01:05:11,369 --> 01:05:14,497
[reporter] The fire department
received a call from the FBI
1324
01:05:14,497 --> 01:05:17,500
five days before the bombing,
warning that
1325
01:05:17,500 --> 01:05:19,711
"there were some people
coming through town
1326
01:05:19,711 --> 01:05:22,130
they should be
on the lookout for."
1327
01:05:22,130 --> 01:05:24,507
[Sanders] When the fire chief
is confronted
1328
01:05:24,507 --> 01:05:26,051
with this information, he said,
1329
01:05:26,051 --> 01:05:28,803
"You know what,
I made a mistake.
1330
01:05:28,803 --> 01:05:31,806
It was our bomb squad truck
down there."
1331
01:05:31,806 --> 01:05:34,184
[reporter] The ATF director
told reporters
1332
01:05:34,184 --> 01:05:35,685
they had taken some precaution
1333
01:05:35,685 --> 01:05:38,605
for the second anniversary
of the siege in Waco.
1334
01:05:38,605 --> 01:05:40,106
I was very concerned about that.
1335
01:05:40,106 --> 01:05:42,567
We did some things
here in headquarters
1336
01:05:42,567 --> 01:05:45,070
and in all of our field offices
throughout the country
1337
01:05:45,070 --> 01:05:48,406
to try to be more observant.
But it was primarily--
1338
01:05:48,406 --> 01:05:50,241
We didn't anticipate
something like this.
1339
01:05:50,241 --> 01:05:53,370
We were thinking about,
you know, demonstrations
1340
01:05:53,370 --> 01:05:55,080
and things like that.
1341
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:56,664
I think, yeah,
we should have known
1342
01:05:56,664 --> 01:05:59,125
that there was some danger
in the building that day
1343
01:05:59,125 --> 01:06:02,087
due to the fact that April 19th
1344
01:06:02,087 --> 01:06:05,256
is such a special day
to the right wing.
1345
01:06:05,256 --> 01:06:07,717
So you're not somebody
that could be characterized
1346
01:06:07,717 --> 01:06:10,303
as a conspiracy-theory person,
1347
01:06:10,303 --> 01:06:12,764
in the sense that you feel
the federal government was,
1348
01:06:12,764 --> 01:06:15,058
in some way,
part of this explosion?
1349
01:06:15,058 --> 01:06:16,768
No. Not at all.
1350
01:06:17,477 --> 01:06:20,438
[Sanders] Glenn and I had
so many questions.
1351
01:06:20,438 --> 01:06:21,690
After the bombing,
1352
01:06:21,690 --> 01:06:24,192
they started the biggest manhunt
in American history
1353
01:06:24,192 --> 01:06:26,111
for John Doe Number 2.
1354
01:06:26,986 --> 01:06:30,073
And then they called it off.
1355
01:06:31,449 --> 01:06:34,661
[Jones] The government
originally described two men.
1356
01:06:34,661 --> 01:06:36,371
They had the sketches of them.
1357
01:06:36,371 --> 01:06:38,957
And there were
numerous credible people
1358
01:06:38,957 --> 01:06:42,585
in downtown Oklahoma City
just before the bombing
1359
01:06:42,585 --> 01:06:46,631
that claimed that they saw
McVeigh and someone else.
1360
01:06:47,132 --> 01:06:49,509
The government then,
about 30 days later,
1361
01:06:49,509 --> 01:06:53,388
said there isn't any John Doe 2.
It was a mistake.
1362
01:06:55,056 --> 01:06:58,059
We had learned enough by then
1363
01:06:58,059 --> 01:07:00,478
that we knew
there was something wrong.
1364
01:07:02,105 --> 01:07:05,358
Twenty-two eyewitnesses
told the FBI
1365
01:07:05,358 --> 01:07:08,028
they saw McVeigh downtown
the morning of the bombing,
1366
01:07:08,028 --> 01:07:10,655
and they all saw him
with someone else.
1367
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,326
This is
Michael Moroz's testimony
1368
01:07:15,326 --> 01:07:19,998
about McVeigh pulling up
at Johnny's Tire Shop.
1369
01:07:19,998 --> 01:07:22,042
[Moroz] There was definitely
a second person.
1370
01:07:22,042 --> 01:07:24,961
He had dark hair,
maybe a dark complexion.
1371
01:07:24,961 --> 01:07:26,504
He wasn't fair-skinned.
I'm fair-skinned.
1372
01:07:26,504 --> 01:07:29,049
I can tell the difference
between fair and dark skin.
1373
01:07:29,049 --> 01:07:30,508
[Sanders] They brought him in.
1374
01:07:30,508 --> 01:07:33,678
He picks McVeigh
out of the lineup,
1375
01:07:34,179 --> 01:07:37,349
and he tells them there was
the man in the ball cap
1376
01:07:37,349 --> 01:07:39,642
in the passenger side
of the truck.
1377
01:07:42,562 --> 01:07:45,648
I did get a lot of flak
from the families and survivors
1378
01:07:45,648 --> 01:07:49,611
when I wanted to find out
about the others involved.
1379
01:07:50,070 --> 01:07:53,490
To try and point the blame
at somebody else
1380
01:07:53,490 --> 01:07:56,159
besides the people
who parked the truck out front
1381
01:07:56,159 --> 01:07:57,619
is irresponsible.
1382
01:07:57,619 --> 01:08:01,539
There are unanswered questions
that we want answers to.
1383
01:08:01,539 --> 01:08:05,251
I know that Melissa and Sharon
have expressed views
1384
01:08:05,251 --> 01:08:07,754
that they think all the truth
will come out in the trial.
1385
01:08:07,754 --> 01:08:10,256
What do you think
the truth is in all of this?
1386
01:08:10,256 --> 01:08:11,549
Do you support your parents
1387
01:08:11,549 --> 01:08:13,677
that there are
many other people involved?
1388
01:08:13,677 --> 01:08:15,428
Definitely. I believe
what they're doing
1389
01:08:15,428 --> 01:08:17,555
is the right thing,
they're gonna find the truth,
1390
01:08:17,555 --> 01:08:19,683
and then when
they find out the truth
1391
01:08:19,683 --> 01:08:22,852
and, um, and everybody knows
what's been going on,
1392
01:08:22,852 --> 01:08:24,896
then we can put this
all behind us.
1393
01:08:24,896 --> 01:08:26,606
[dramatic music playing]
1394
01:08:26,606 --> 01:08:28,149
[reporter]
A federal judge has moved
1395
01:08:28,149 --> 01:08:30,777
the Oklahoma bombing trial
to Denver,
1396
01:08:30,777 --> 01:08:33,822
saying the defendants can't get
a fair trial in Oklahoma.
1397
01:08:33,822 --> 01:08:36,908
The judge said that outweighs
the wishes of victims' families
1398
01:08:36,908 --> 01:08:38,368
who wanted the trial
in Oklahoma,
1399
01:08:38,368 --> 01:08:40,829
making it easier
for them to attend.
1400
01:08:41,454 --> 01:08:43,415
What happened April 19th, 1995,
1401
01:08:43,415 --> 01:08:46,084
I don't want anybody
to ever forget.
1402
01:08:46,084 --> 01:08:49,087
[Kimble] In the beginning,
I started drinking,
1403
01:08:49,087 --> 01:08:52,424
and one night walking back
to the bedroom,
1404
01:08:52,424 --> 01:08:55,010
I passed out
and cracked my head open.
1405
01:08:55,010 --> 01:08:56,261
And I thought at that time
1406
01:08:56,261 --> 01:08:59,973
I'd better find
something positive to do
1407
01:08:59,973 --> 01:09:02,100
or I'm going to kill myself.
1408
01:09:02,642 --> 01:09:07,439
So I started a group called
Families and Survivors United.
1409
01:09:08,106 --> 01:09:10,942
The pre-trial hearings started.
1410
01:09:10,942 --> 01:09:15,155
Judge Matsch said, "Okay,
you can be in this courtroom,
1411
01:09:15,155 --> 01:09:17,782
but if you want to give
an impact statement,
1412
01:09:17,782 --> 01:09:22,454
you better leave,
because you can't do both."
1413
01:09:22,954 --> 01:09:24,539
I said, "Wait a minute.
1414
01:09:24,539 --> 01:09:26,875
I have a right
to be in that courtroom."
1415
01:09:28,793 --> 01:09:31,588
On April the 19th, 1995,
1416
01:09:31,588 --> 01:09:34,132
the bomb that shattered
the Alfred P. Murrah Building
1417
01:09:34,132 --> 01:09:37,469
in Oklahoma City
also shattered my life.
1418
01:09:37,469 --> 01:09:39,888
The victims' lobby
in the Oklahoma City bombing
1419
01:09:39,888 --> 01:09:41,097
was so powerful
1420
01:09:41,097 --> 01:09:43,308
that they actually got
a law passed.
1421
01:09:44,100 --> 01:09:45,185
[Kimble] It was a miracle.
1422
01:09:45,185 --> 01:09:47,562
It went through
the House and Senate
1423
01:09:47,562 --> 01:09:50,607
and was signed by Clinton
in two days.
1424
01:09:53,526 --> 01:09:55,612
[Ann Curry] Prosecutors in
the Oklahoma City bombing case
1425
01:09:55,612 --> 01:09:59,324
have a valuable new witness,
Michael Fortier.
1426
01:09:59,324 --> 01:10:00,492
[Ricks] At first,
1427
01:10:00,492 --> 01:10:02,494
Michael Fortier refuses
to cooperate.
1428
01:10:02,494 --> 01:10:05,080
But he's got
a wife that's pregnant.
1429
01:10:05,705 --> 01:10:09,000
He makes a deal
that he will fully cooperate
1430
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,419
as long as Lori
doesn't go to prison.
1431
01:10:13,797 --> 01:10:15,590
[reporter] Fortier said,
"McVeigh told me
1432
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:18,927
he wanted to bomb the building
on the anniversary of Waco,
1433
01:10:18,927 --> 01:10:20,178
April 19th,
1434
01:10:20,178 --> 01:10:21,554
and that the bombing
would trigger
1435
01:10:21,554 --> 01:10:23,807
a second American Revolution."
1436
01:10:24,432 --> 01:10:27,185
McVeigh confided everything
in him.
1437
01:10:27,185 --> 01:10:28,728
And-- and to Lori.
1438
01:10:29,437 --> 01:10:32,273
[Toobin] The most memorable
moment in the trial to me
1439
01:10:32,273 --> 01:10:37,737
was when Lori Fortier talked
about Timothy McVeigh
1440
01:10:37,737 --> 01:10:43,368
getting Campbell's Soup cans
out of the kitchen cabinet
1441
01:10:43,368 --> 01:10:46,371
and laying out
how he was going to arrange
1442
01:10:46,371 --> 01:10:49,165
the barrels of explosives
in the truck.
1443
01:10:49,165 --> 01:10:51,876
It was so real. It was so vivid.
1444
01:10:51,876 --> 01:10:53,378
It was the kind of thing
1445
01:10:53,378 --> 01:10:55,755
you couldn't make up
if you wanted to.
1446
01:10:55,755 --> 01:10:59,968
I sat with Michael Fortier
for hundreds of hours.
1447
01:11:00,427 --> 01:11:04,556
I know everybody who was called
on the Spotlight phone card.
1448
01:11:05,765 --> 01:11:09,102
When you ask me
why I'm so confident
1449
01:11:09,102 --> 01:11:10,562
that we got the right guys
1450
01:11:10,562 --> 01:11:13,273
and that there's no one else
kind of out there,
1451
01:11:13,273 --> 01:11:16,609
it's because of things
like Fortier and the phone card.
1452
01:11:17,318 --> 01:11:20,071
This was the government's
version of the case,
1453
01:11:20,530 --> 01:11:25,076
that the Spotlight calling card
is the sum and substance
1454
01:11:25,076 --> 01:11:26,870
of McVeigh
and Nichols' contacts,
1455
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:31,416
and it doesn't disclose
any co-conspirators.
1456
01:11:33,251 --> 01:11:34,919
[Coulson] I've seen 302s.
1457
01:11:34,919 --> 01:11:37,589
302s are a report by the FBI.
1458
01:11:37,589 --> 01:11:39,758
Private citizens have said
the morning of the bombing
1459
01:11:39,758 --> 01:11:43,386
they saw somebody else
in that truck with McVeigh.
1460
01:11:43,386 --> 01:11:45,055
That's very troubling to me.
1461
01:11:45,055 --> 01:11:48,933
And I will tell you why I think
that never got followed up.
1462
01:11:48,933 --> 01:11:51,144
Had they introduced that
1463
01:11:51,144 --> 01:11:53,480
and followed
that line of investigation,
1464
01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:55,440
that would have diminished
his culpability.
1465
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:57,025
The defense didn't bring it up
1466
01:11:57,025 --> 01:12:00,195
because it's one more witness
that says McVeigh was there.
1467
01:12:00,904 --> 01:12:04,449
We didn't call
any of the eyewitnesses
1468
01:12:04,449 --> 01:12:07,452
because their testimony would
have been damaging to McVeigh.
1469
01:12:07,452 --> 01:12:09,621
To call them, we're establishing
1470
01:12:09,621 --> 01:12:14,084
that McVeigh was
in downtown Oklahoma City
1471
01:12:14,084 --> 01:12:16,920
when the government's case
was largely circumstantial
1472
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:18,338
that he was there.
1473
01:12:19,464 --> 01:12:22,175
[reporter] The sister of
bombing suspect Timothy McVeigh
1474
01:12:22,175 --> 01:12:25,595
says she's sorry she has
to cooperate with prosecutors
1475
01:12:25,595 --> 01:12:27,055
in the case against
her brother.
1476
01:12:27,055 --> 01:12:29,140
[Jennifer] I think
he's been unfairly demonized.
1477
01:12:29,140 --> 01:12:31,142
He's just a normal person.
He's...
1478
01:12:31,935 --> 01:12:34,020
not this evil thing
they're painting him to be.
1479
01:12:34,020 --> 01:12:37,357
[reporter] She says FBI agents
frightened her into cooperating
1480
01:12:37,357 --> 01:12:40,443
by threatening her
with prosecution.
1481
01:12:40,985 --> 01:12:42,153
[Wilkinson] I was responsible
1482
01:12:42,153 --> 01:12:44,447
for trying to prepare
Jennifer McVeigh
1483
01:12:44,447 --> 01:12:45,949
as a witness.
1484
01:12:46,324 --> 01:12:48,743
Jennifer McVeigh's testimony,
1485
01:12:49,327 --> 01:12:51,329
I think, was dramatic
from beginning to end
1486
01:12:51,329 --> 01:12:53,248
because of who she was.
1487
01:12:53,748 --> 01:12:56,876
She said when she heard
about the bombing,
1488
01:12:56,876 --> 01:12:58,837
she immediately had
this eerie feeling
1489
01:12:58,837 --> 01:13:03,800
that she knew that her brother
might have been involved.
1490
01:13:08,138 --> 01:13:09,389
We did our best.
1491
01:13:09,389 --> 01:13:11,683
We put all of our energy
and effort into it,
1492
01:13:11,683 --> 01:13:14,936
and we'll wait
and see what the jury says.
1493
01:13:14,936 --> 01:13:17,480
[O'Donnell]
Giving the court case number
1494
01:13:17,480 --> 01:13:21,609
for The United States
v. Timothy James McVeigh.
1495
01:13:21,609 --> 01:13:24,446
Guilty.
Guilty on all 11 counts.
1496
01:13:24,446 --> 01:13:26,573
[people cheering]
1497
01:13:29,617 --> 01:13:32,537
[Jones] It's as though
Tim wanted us to fail.
1498
01:13:32,537 --> 01:13:34,497
He wanted to say, "I did it."
1499
01:13:34,497 --> 01:13:36,332
But first,
he wanted the jury trial
1500
01:13:36,332 --> 01:13:38,918
just in case he got off.
1501
01:13:38,918 --> 01:13:43,548
But then when he didn't get off,
then he wanted the fame,
1502
01:13:43,548 --> 01:13:46,843
or infamy, that he did it.
1503
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:50,055
I went to Tim, and I said,
1504
01:13:50,055 --> 01:13:51,556
"Tim, I need to tell you
1505
01:13:51,556 --> 01:13:55,226
that I'm not... the lawyer
you need for the appeal.
1506
01:13:55,226 --> 01:13:57,270
I'm going to seek to withdraw."
1507
01:13:57,729 --> 01:14:00,690
I told him
that I had figured out
1508
01:14:00,690 --> 01:14:04,319
where he had lied
and the proof that he had lied.
1509
01:14:04,319 --> 01:14:07,030
And when I finished, he said,
1510
01:14:07,030 --> 01:14:09,032
"How would the truth help me?"
1511
01:14:11,534 --> 01:14:15,872
And I mistakenly said,
"I don't know that it would."
1512
01:14:18,166 --> 01:14:20,835
[Wilkinson] People forget
that a prosecution is not there
1513
01:14:20,835 --> 01:14:25,548
to lay out a historical record
of the entire movement
1514
01:14:25,548 --> 01:14:28,635
or in everything that
McVeigh ever did in his life.
1515
01:14:28,635 --> 01:14:29,928
That's what history books
are for,
1516
01:14:29,928 --> 01:14:31,805
and that's
a different-- different goal.
1517
01:14:31,805 --> 01:14:34,265
Here, it was to prove
the elements of the crime
1518
01:14:34,265 --> 01:14:36,267
and hold him accountable.
1519
01:14:36,267 --> 01:14:38,937
The criminal law
can only do so much.
1520
01:14:39,979 --> 01:14:41,272
And we got everybody
1521
01:14:41,272 --> 01:14:46,111
who was legally, criminally
responsible for the bombing.
1522
01:14:46,611 --> 01:14:49,406
There-- there could have been
other people who were...
1523
01:14:49,406 --> 01:14:50,865
If we had the evidence,
1524
01:14:50,865 --> 01:14:52,867
could've been
criminally culpable.
1525
01:14:52,867 --> 01:14:55,245
But then there's
a whole universe of people
1526
01:14:55,245 --> 01:14:56,955
who were not criminally culpable
1527
01:14:56,955 --> 01:15:01,042
but who bear some measure
of moral responsibility.
1528
01:15:02,460 --> 01:15:04,004
[Sands] Tim McVeigh was
part of the group
1529
01:15:04,004 --> 01:15:06,798
that wanted to declare war
on America.
1530
01:15:07,298 --> 01:15:08,508
The government thought,
1531
01:15:08,508 --> 01:15:10,385
"We tried
to round them all up once
1532
01:15:10,385 --> 01:15:12,971
with this sedition trial in '88,
1533
01:15:12,971 --> 01:15:14,180
and we blew it.
1534
01:15:14,180 --> 01:15:15,765
We can't do that again.
1535
01:15:16,307 --> 01:15:17,934
We have to limit this."
1536
01:15:18,810 --> 01:15:21,021
And the American people
are none the wiser
1537
01:15:21,021 --> 01:15:26,693
about how ugly and how serious
some Americans are
1538
01:15:26,693 --> 01:15:29,821
about destroying this nation.
1539
01:15:31,531 --> 01:15:32,824
[gunshots]
1540
01:15:32,824 --> 01:15:34,617
[Boettcher] We always believed
1541
01:15:34,617 --> 01:15:38,079
that there had to be
more people involved.
1542
01:15:39,664 --> 01:15:41,666
We started talking
to militia groups,
1543
01:15:41,666 --> 01:15:44,294
people who may have
supported them.
1544
01:15:44,294 --> 01:15:48,173
These extreme beliefs just
weren't held by a few people.
1545
01:15:48,631 --> 01:15:50,592
Actually, there were
a lot of people out there
1546
01:15:50,592 --> 01:15:53,553
who felt the way McVeigh did.
1547
01:15:55,513 --> 01:15:59,142
So we would go to places
like Elohim City
1548
01:15:59,142 --> 01:16:00,852
in far eastern Oklahoma,
1549
01:16:00,852 --> 01:16:03,521
where we believed
that McVeigh had passed through.
1550
01:16:03,521 --> 01:16:05,273
[children singing nursery rhyme]
1551
01:16:05,899 --> 01:16:08,360
[Boettcher] They were following
Christian identity.
1552
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:12,572
Their belief was anything
that wasn't white was subhuman.
1553
01:16:12,572 --> 01:16:14,282
If you just want
to boil down to it,
1554
01:16:14,282 --> 01:16:15,658
that's what it was.
1555
01:16:18,870 --> 01:16:21,873
[Coulson] Elohim City is key
to a lot of things here.
1556
01:16:22,290 --> 01:16:24,834
I think McVeigh
definitely was at Elohim City.
1557
01:16:24,834 --> 01:16:28,713
ATF had an informant
that put him there, Carol Howe.
1558
01:16:28,713 --> 01:16:30,215
[Boettcher on recording]
NBC has learned
1559
01:16:30,215 --> 01:16:32,550
that the community
was penetrated by this woman,
1560
01:16:32,550 --> 01:16:35,178
Carol Howe,
a paid government informant,
1561
01:16:35,178 --> 01:16:37,555
who was gathering information
on possible threats
1562
01:16:37,555 --> 01:16:39,057
against the U.S. government.
1563
01:16:39,057 --> 01:16:41,226
The government acknowledges
in federal documents
1564
01:16:41,226 --> 01:16:43,019
that she was their informant.
1565
01:16:43,019 --> 01:16:45,271
[Toobin] Carol Howe was
an Oklahoma aristocrat.
1566
01:16:45,271 --> 01:16:49,651
Her father was the CEO of
a Fortune 500 company in Tulsa.
1567
01:16:49,651 --> 01:16:52,112
But when she was
just into her 20s,
1568
01:16:52,112 --> 01:16:53,738
she got caught up
1569
01:16:53,738 --> 01:16:57,117
with some really crazy
right-wing folks.
1570
01:16:57,951 --> 01:17:01,705
At the same time,
she became an informant
1571
01:17:01,705 --> 01:17:04,457
for the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
1572
01:17:05,208 --> 01:17:07,752
We started following
the trail of neo-Nazis,
1573
01:17:07,752 --> 01:17:09,921
and she had
a neo-Nazi boyfriend,
1574
01:17:09,921 --> 01:17:12,298
a guy named Dennis Mahon.
1575
01:17:12,298 --> 01:17:13,758
The faster this country falls,
1576
01:17:13,758 --> 01:17:15,927
the faster we'll be able
to rebuild a nation for ourself.
1577
01:17:15,927 --> 01:17:18,221
[Boettcher on recording]
Remarkably, Howe and Mahon
1578
01:17:18,221 --> 01:17:22,100
appeared together in a 1994
German television interview.
1579
01:17:22,100 --> 01:17:24,769
Howe gave the government
information before the bombing
1580
01:17:24,769 --> 01:17:27,105
on alleged threats
by others in Elohim City,
1581
01:17:27,105 --> 01:17:29,607
including this man,
Andreas Strassmeir.
1582
01:17:29,607 --> 01:17:30,984
According to federal documents,
1583
01:17:30,984 --> 01:17:33,319
Strassmeir was
the military training officer
1584
01:17:33,319 --> 01:17:34,988
for Mahon's organization.
1585
01:17:34,988 --> 01:17:37,282
Strassmeir was last seen
in Germany.
1586
01:17:37,282 --> 01:17:39,284
[ominous music playing]
1587
01:17:39,284 --> 01:17:43,121
This is one of Carol Howe's
reports to her ATF handler.
1588
01:17:44,039 --> 01:17:46,041
She's talking
about Andreas Strassmeir
1589
01:17:46,041 --> 01:17:47,125
at Elohim City.
1590
01:17:48,126 --> 01:17:51,212
"Andy leads the young adults
in guerrilla warfare
1591
01:17:51,212 --> 01:17:53,006
and tactical maneuvers.
1592
01:17:53,923 --> 01:17:56,301
His 'plans,' quote,
1593
01:17:56,301 --> 01:18:00,805
are to forcibly act to destroy
the U.S. government
1594
01:18:00,805 --> 01:18:03,808
with direct actions
and operations,
1595
01:18:03,808 --> 01:18:08,146
assassinations, bombings,
mass shootings, et cetera.
1596
01:18:08,146 --> 01:18:11,649
He believes
we cannot out-breed the enemy
1597
01:18:11,649 --> 01:18:15,153
so we must use
mass genocide against them.
1598
01:18:15,487 --> 01:18:17,655
And of course
the biggest enemy--
1599
01:18:17,655 --> 01:18:19,407
the U.S. government."
1600
01:18:21,368 --> 01:18:22,786
She reported that there was
1601
01:18:22,786 --> 01:18:24,954
an increasing discussion
of violence
1602
01:18:24,954 --> 01:18:28,041
and there was a discussion
about blowing up a building,
1603
01:18:28,041 --> 01:18:31,753
even to the point
that they made a visit
1604
01:18:31,753 --> 01:18:33,421
to Oklahoma City
and drove around.
1605
01:18:33,421 --> 01:18:36,091
There wouldn't have probably
been an Oklahoma City bombing,
1606
01:18:36,091 --> 01:18:37,342
in my view,
1607
01:18:37,342 --> 01:18:40,637
had Elohim City been
investigated more diligently.
1608
01:18:41,221 --> 01:18:43,556
[Sands] Carol Howe knew
what was happening
1609
01:18:43,556 --> 01:18:45,809
and she told them
she had seen a guy.
1610
01:18:45,809 --> 01:18:47,644
They identified him
as Tim Tuttle.
1611
01:18:47,644 --> 01:18:49,604
At the time,
she wouldn't have known anything
1612
01:18:49,604 --> 01:18:50,689
about who this guy was.
1613
01:18:50,689 --> 01:18:52,774
But after the bombing,
1614
01:18:52,774 --> 01:18:55,944
she knew it was Tim McVeigh.
She had seen his pictures.
1615
01:18:55,944 --> 01:18:58,988
Tim was walking through camp
with Andreas Strassmeir,
1616
01:18:58,988 --> 01:19:03,159
just some guy named Tim Tuttle
walking with Andy the German.
1617
01:19:03,993 --> 01:19:07,038
Andy Strassmeir
was an important person
1618
01:19:07,038 --> 01:19:10,041
that I thought
needed to be interviewed.
1619
01:19:10,792 --> 01:19:13,294
I was able to meet
with Strassmeir.
1620
01:19:13,294 --> 01:19:16,047
And I asked
a simple question. I said,
1621
01:19:16,047 --> 01:19:21,761
"Why is it that there are 302s,
FBI 302s, interviews,
1622
01:19:21,761 --> 01:19:26,224
with all of these different
radical people...
1623
01:19:27,726 --> 01:19:29,394
but they don't have you?"
1624
01:19:30,353 --> 01:19:32,772
As I expected, you know,
he-- he knew nothing.
1625
01:19:32,772 --> 01:19:35,608
He might have met Tim
at a gun show.
1626
01:19:35,608 --> 01:19:36,985
Couldn't remember.
1627
01:19:39,738 --> 01:19:41,906
[Strassmeir] I forgot
about this person...
1628
01:19:54,669 --> 01:19:56,421
One of the things
that really concerned me
1629
01:19:56,421 --> 01:20:00,008
was when I got a hold
of McVeigh's phone records.
1630
01:20:00,467 --> 01:20:02,385
He called Elohim City
1631
01:20:02,385 --> 01:20:05,430
two minutes after calling
the Ryder Truck company,
1632
01:20:05,430 --> 01:20:09,851
and he asked to speak
to Andreas Strassmeir.
1633
01:20:15,774 --> 01:20:18,610
The FBI interviewed
thousands of people
1634
01:20:18,610 --> 01:20:19,986
regarding Timothy McVeigh,
1635
01:20:19,986 --> 01:20:23,823
including his second-grade
schoolteacher.
1636
01:20:25,408 --> 01:20:27,410
But they didn't think
it was important
1637
01:20:27,410 --> 01:20:29,704
to talk to Andreas Strassmeir.
1638
01:20:30,455 --> 01:20:33,667
He wound up leaving the country
and went back to Germany.
1639
01:20:33,667 --> 01:20:35,251
It was like
more than a year later
1640
01:20:35,251 --> 01:20:38,380
that the FBI called and did
a telephone interview with him.
1641
01:20:39,214 --> 01:20:42,092
[Coulson] Strassmeir,
there's controversy about him.
1642
01:20:42,092 --> 01:20:44,886
Some people think
he's a source of the Israelis,
1643
01:20:44,886 --> 01:20:46,221
and some people think
1644
01:20:46,221 --> 01:20:48,098
he's a source
of the West German government.
1645
01:20:48,556 --> 01:20:49,974
At the time,
1646
01:20:49,974 --> 01:20:52,477
the German government
was very unhappy with the FBI.
1647
01:20:52,852 --> 01:20:54,104
Because we have guidelines
1648
01:20:54,104 --> 01:20:56,731
on how we investigate
domestic terrorism.
1649
01:20:56,731 --> 01:20:58,274
They're pretty limiting.
1650
01:20:58,274 --> 01:21:00,777
And so they wanted to try
to get their own information.
1651
01:21:00,777 --> 01:21:02,487
Somebody should have
looked at it.
1652
01:21:02,487 --> 01:21:04,280
I personally was responsible
1653
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:07,033
for searching
the intelligence files
1654
01:21:07,033 --> 01:21:08,493
here in the United States,
1655
01:21:08,493 --> 01:21:11,621
and there's no evidence
there was foreign involvement.
1656
01:21:11,621 --> 01:21:13,164
McVeigh had met him
at a gun show
1657
01:21:13,164 --> 01:21:16,543
and called him, you know,
two weeks
1658
01:21:16,543 --> 01:21:19,295
before he engaged
in the bombing.
1659
01:21:19,295 --> 01:21:21,172
That doesn't show
there's any connection.
1660
01:21:21,172 --> 01:21:23,174
He met lots of people
at gun shows.
1661
01:21:24,467 --> 01:21:26,344
[Jones] There was
certainly evidence
1662
01:21:26,344 --> 01:21:30,432
that Tim McVeigh had probably
been at Elohim City.
1663
01:21:30,849 --> 01:21:33,059
He kept denying
that he had been there,
1664
01:21:33,059 --> 01:21:35,478
but yet, he was stopped,
I believe,
1665
01:21:35,478 --> 01:21:37,564
by an Arkansas highway patrolman
1666
01:21:37,564 --> 01:21:40,233
on a road that led
to Elohim City.
1667
01:21:40,233 --> 01:21:43,153
There were people that said
he had been there.
1668
01:21:44,070 --> 01:21:46,698
[Reyna] I told him, I said,
"Tim, you know and I know...
1669
01:21:47,323 --> 01:21:49,909
that you were used."
He didn't say anything.
1670
01:21:49,909 --> 01:21:52,120
He didn't say,
"No, that didn't happen."
1671
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:54,247
The way that group
was always together,
1672
01:21:54,247 --> 01:21:57,083
there's just no way
he was not there.
1673
01:21:59,419 --> 01:22:03,048
Strassmeir was there,
Ellison was there,
1674
01:22:03,048 --> 01:22:06,134
Snell was buried there
in Elohim City.
1675
01:22:07,010 --> 01:22:09,554
[Sanders] On the day
Snell was executed,
1676
01:22:09,554 --> 01:22:13,141
he asked for the TV
to be turned on in his cell,
1677
01:22:13,141 --> 01:22:15,143
and the prison watch log
notes that,
1678
01:22:15,143 --> 01:22:18,104
"Inmate Snell smiled
and chuckled
1679
01:22:18,104 --> 01:22:20,815
as he watched the coverage
of the Oklahoma City bombing."
1680
01:22:20,815 --> 01:22:25,362
It's just hard for me to believe
that it was all coincidence.
1681
01:22:25,987 --> 01:22:27,405
[Wright] It's not a coincidence.
1682
01:22:27,405 --> 01:22:29,449
Remember, the idea of blowing up
the Murrah Building
1683
01:22:29,449 --> 01:22:32,994
was hatched ten years earlier
among members
1684
01:22:32,994 --> 01:22:35,872
of the Covenant, Sword,
and Arm of the Lord.
1685
01:22:35,872 --> 01:22:39,084
This was a plan
that not just McVeigh
1686
01:22:39,084 --> 01:22:41,753
but others
who were at Elohim City
1687
01:22:41,753 --> 01:22:44,464
decided to resurrect
from the ashes.
1688
01:22:45,006 --> 01:22:47,217
[Sands] I came to understand
1689
01:22:47,217 --> 01:22:49,260
Elohim City
was the training ground.
1690
01:22:49,260 --> 01:22:51,763
The Covenant, the Sword,
and the Arm of the Lord
1691
01:22:51,763 --> 01:22:53,306
had moved its operations
1692
01:22:53,306 --> 01:22:55,433
to the Cookson Hills
of Oklahoma.
1693
01:22:55,433 --> 01:22:58,937
And that's where they were
gonna train these people
1694
01:22:58,937 --> 01:23:00,605
to overthrow the government.
1695
01:23:00,605 --> 01:23:03,274
These guys were ready for war.
1696
01:23:07,654 --> 01:23:09,614
[reporter] In court,
McVeigh watched intently
1697
01:23:09,614 --> 01:23:11,324
as the jury filed in.
1698
01:23:11,324 --> 01:23:14,119
Judge Richard Matsch
asked for their decision.
1699
01:23:14,119 --> 01:23:16,621
"The jury recommends
the following," said the judge.
1700
01:23:16,621 --> 01:23:20,208
"That Timothy James McVeigh
be sentenced to death."
1701
01:23:21,334 --> 01:23:24,963
[Welch] I went to the bomb site
every day after the bombing,
1702
01:23:24,963 --> 01:23:28,591
asking myself,
"What can I do to feel better?"
1703
01:23:29,801 --> 01:23:31,302
And I finally came
to the conclusion
1704
01:23:31,302 --> 01:23:34,097
that the day we would take
Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols
1705
01:23:34,097 --> 01:23:35,598
from their cage to kill them
1706
01:23:35,598 --> 01:23:39,436
was simply not going to be
part of my healing process.
1707
01:23:41,187 --> 01:23:44,983
[Sanders] My husband was dying
during McVeigh's trial.
1708
01:23:45,525 --> 01:23:48,486
The babies are dead,
and then Glenn died.
1709
01:23:49,154 --> 01:23:51,156
The trials came and went.
1710
01:23:51,156 --> 01:23:53,658
There's a lot
of unanswered questions.
1711
01:23:54,659 --> 01:23:59,998
I believe I owed it to them
to continue that journey
1712
01:23:59,998 --> 01:24:03,335
to try to get answers
to these questions.
1713
01:24:04,210 --> 01:24:06,338
Over the years,
it's been a balancing act,
1714
01:24:06,338 --> 01:24:10,925
almost like a tightrope act
for me, to...
1715
01:24:11,384 --> 01:24:14,471
to not get lumped in
with the crazies.
1716
01:24:14,471 --> 01:24:19,517
I needed to just find my truth,
not invent it.
1717
01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,147
I learned about these groups
around the country.
1718
01:24:24,147 --> 01:24:26,107
[ominous music playing]
1719
01:24:26,775 --> 01:24:29,027
[Sanders] They thrive on hate.
1720
01:24:29,027 --> 01:24:31,321
And I think it's like a cancer.
1721
01:24:33,114 --> 01:24:35,116
I went to
the Aryan Nation compound
1722
01:24:35,116 --> 01:24:36,868
in Hayden Lake, Idaho.
1723
01:24:37,410 --> 01:24:40,163
I'd heard that Timothy McVeigh
had been through there,
1724
01:24:40,163 --> 01:24:43,708
and that's how-- They helped
shape his hateful ideals.
1725
01:24:46,503 --> 01:24:50,340
And I said, "I'm here
to see Pastor Richard Butler."
1726
01:24:51,383 --> 01:24:54,260
For me,
he's the head of the snake.
1727
01:24:55,553 --> 01:24:58,890
But I've got a desperation
to know the truth,
1728
01:24:59,683 --> 01:25:03,103
and I'm willing to dance
with the devil to get it.
1729
01:25:03,812 --> 01:25:05,313
We're talking about creating
1730
01:25:05,313 --> 01:25:07,315
a national state
for the white Aryan.
1731
01:25:07,315 --> 01:25:09,859
[Sanders] He begins his sermon,
and he looks at me, and he says,
1732
01:25:09,859 --> 01:25:13,571
"One man's terrorist is
another man's freedom fighter,"
1733
01:25:13,571 --> 01:25:16,074
and that Timothy McVeigh
was a great man
1734
01:25:16,074 --> 01:25:17,534
and a martyr for the cause.
1735
01:25:17,534 --> 01:25:19,661
And he actually teared up
when he said,
1736
01:25:19,661 --> 01:25:23,623
"I am so sorry about
your little Aryan grandsons."
1737
01:25:23,623 --> 01:25:26,584
He said, "I cried
when I saw them on TV."
1738
01:25:30,422 --> 01:25:32,841
[Couric] Since the tragedy here
in Oklahoma City,
1739
01:25:32,841 --> 01:25:35,010
some of those
who lost loved ones
1740
01:25:35,010 --> 01:25:37,637
have found
a new purpose in life.
1741
01:25:38,596 --> 01:25:40,765
Bud Welch, Kathy Wilburn,
good morning.
1742
01:25:40,765 --> 01:25:43,143
- So nice to see you both.
- [both] Good morning.
1743
01:25:43,143 --> 01:25:45,645
I know that both of you
call Bill McVeigh,
1744
01:25:45,645 --> 01:25:49,274
Timothy McVeigh's father,
the forgotten victim.
1745
01:25:49,274 --> 01:25:51,109
[Sanders]
If I put myself in his shoes,
1746
01:25:51,109 --> 01:25:53,111
and I wonder
how it must feel to,
1747
01:25:53,111 --> 01:25:55,739
you know, to wait
to have your child executed,
1748
01:25:55,739 --> 01:25:57,407
it's got to be terrifying.
1749
01:25:57,407 --> 01:25:59,451
We have to recognize
what an execution is.
1750
01:25:59,451 --> 01:26:01,786
An execution is an event.
It's staged.
1751
01:26:01,786 --> 01:26:04,247
We know what time
the killing's going to happen.
1752
01:26:04,247 --> 01:26:06,583
It's nothing more
than a staged political event.
1753
01:26:06,583 --> 01:26:10,211
It does nothing more or less
for society than that.
1754
01:26:12,172 --> 01:26:14,799
[Welch] Tim McVeigh's father
was on the news.
1755
01:26:16,051 --> 01:26:19,512
I could see this man,
a broken man...
1756
01:26:20,180 --> 01:26:21,890
with grief in his eyes.
1757
01:26:23,016 --> 01:26:24,476
And my thought was,
1758
01:26:24,476 --> 01:26:28,855
"I want to go tell that man
that I care how he feels,
1759
01:26:29,356 --> 01:26:30,899
and I don't blame him
1760
01:26:30,899 --> 01:26:32,817
for what his son had done."
1761
01:26:35,070 --> 01:26:37,072
When Bill opened the door,
1762
01:26:37,072 --> 01:26:39,491
and he introduced me
to Jennifer...
1763
01:26:40,450 --> 01:26:44,829
and there's a picture
kind of behind me of Tim.
1764
01:26:45,497 --> 01:26:47,916
I looked at Bill
out of the corner of my eye,
1765
01:26:47,916 --> 01:26:51,252
and I could see
at that moment...
1766
01:26:52,420 --> 01:26:55,840
a love that this father had
for this son.
1767
01:26:56,758 --> 01:27:00,845
And Jennifer just kind of
went to sobbing.
1768
01:27:01,304 --> 01:27:03,682
And I held her face in my hands,
1769
01:27:03,682 --> 01:27:05,350
and I said, "Honey,
1770
01:27:06,059 --> 01:27:08,019
I'll do everything I can
1771
01:27:09,187 --> 01:27:12,691
to keep your brother
from being killed."
1772
01:27:13,441 --> 01:27:16,069
All of a sudden, it felt like
this tremendous weight
1773
01:27:16,069 --> 01:27:18,363
had been removed
from my shoulders,
1774
01:27:18,363 --> 01:27:22,033
and I never felt closer to God
than I did at that moment.
1775
01:27:22,701 --> 01:27:25,412
Because what I recognized
that...
1776
01:27:25,412 --> 01:27:27,831
that Saturday morning was...
1777
01:27:30,125 --> 01:27:33,378
the day that we...
that our parents die,
1778
01:27:33,378 --> 01:27:36,131
we go to the hilltop
and we bury them.
1779
01:27:36,881 --> 01:27:41,386
The day our children die,
we bury them in our heart,
1780
01:27:42,012 --> 01:27:43,805
and that never goes away.
1781
01:27:44,806 --> 01:27:46,850
[somber music playing]
1782
01:27:50,437 --> 01:27:52,397
[reporter] Terry Nichols entered
the courthouse
1783
01:27:52,397 --> 01:27:54,232
on the first day of his trial.
1784
01:27:54,232 --> 01:27:55,942
He will face a crowd of people.
1785
01:27:55,942 --> 01:27:59,738
Twelve of those could
ultimately decide if he dies.
1786
01:28:01,239 --> 01:28:02,574
[Boettcher]
If I had the opportunity
1787
01:28:02,574 --> 01:28:06,745
to sit down with Terry Nichols,
1788
01:28:06,745 --> 01:28:10,040
I would press
on who else was involved.
1789
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:11,708
Where did the money come from?
1790
01:28:12,500 --> 01:28:15,295
[man 1] Yes! Much to plunder.
1791
01:28:16,421 --> 01:28:18,757
[man 2] I see
you boys had a good mission.
1792
01:28:18,757 --> 01:28:20,633
- Nest egg!
- [Boettcher] Did the funding
1793
01:28:20,633 --> 01:28:23,345
for the Oklahoma City bombing
come from those bank robberies
1794
01:28:23,345 --> 01:28:25,847
that were done
by radical groups?
1795
01:28:26,514 --> 01:28:28,308
[Boettcher on recording]
The Midwestern Bank Bandits
1796
01:28:28,308 --> 01:28:29,768
are white supremacists
1797
01:28:29,768 --> 01:28:33,355
who allegedly robbed
22 banks in seven states.
1798
01:28:33,355 --> 01:28:36,608
The take: $250,000.
1799
01:28:36,608 --> 01:28:38,193
Law enforcement officials
believe
1800
01:28:38,193 --> 01:28:41,237
the money was distributed to
other white supremacist groups.
1801
01:28:41,821 --> 01:28:43,990
Members of the gang
were frequent visitors
1802
01:28:43,990 --> 01:28:45,617
to Elohim City.
1803
01:28:47,494 --> 01:28:50,121
[Sands] Tim had
no visible means of support.
1804
01:28:51,122 --> 01:28:53,875
You gotta feed yourself,
you gotta keep the car going,
1805
01:28:53,875 --> 01:28:55,293
you gotta have money for...
1806
01:28:55,293 --> 01:28:57,295
just to be able
to spend the night someplace.
1807
01:28:57,295 --> 01:28:59,089
He was always renting a room.
1808
01:28:59,631 --> 01:29:01,257
Where'd the money come from?
1809
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:06,513
And then I read his sister said
that he told her in this letter
1810
01:29:06,513 --> 01:29:09,140
that he got some money
out of robbing banks.
1811
01:29:09,140 --> 01:29:10,684
And there were other robberies.
1812
01:29:10,684 --> 01:29:13,478
He also robbed a gun dealer
named Roger Moore.
1813
01:29:13,478 --> 01:29:14,813
[Boettcher on recording]
About six months
1814
01:29:14,813 --> 01:29:16,606
before the Oklahoma City
bombing,
1815
01:29:16,606 --> 01:29:19,651
a masked gunman allegedly
robbed gun dealer Roger Moore
1816
01:29:19,651 --> 01:29:22,654
of gold bullion, coins,
and weapons.
1817
01:29:22,654 --> 01:29:25,073
[Michel] McVeigh met
this fellow, Roger Moore,
1818
01:29:25,073 --> 01:29:26,408
at one of the gun shows,
1819
01:29:26,408 --> 01:29:29,828
and they become
something of business partners.
1820
01:29:31,037 --> 01:29:33,873
He and Roger Moore
ultimately had a falling out,
1821
01:29:33,873 --> 01:29:37,961
and McVeigh is the mastermind
behind a robbery
1822
01:29:37,961 --> 01:29:39,337
at Roger Moore's house.
1823
01:29:39,337 --> 01:29:42,882
And Terry Nichols
committed the robbery.
1824
01:29:42,882 --> 01:29:44,676
[Wilkinson] Roger Moore
was called as a witness
1825
01:29:44,676 --> 01:29:47,387
because Terry Nichols
and Timothy McVeigh
1826
01:29:47,387 --> 01:29:49,389
stole weapons from him,
1827
01:29:49,389 --> 01:29:54,019
and they were used in part
to fund the bombing.
1828
01:29:55,687 --> 01:29:57,313
[Sanders]
At Terry Nichols' trial,
1829
01:29:57,313 --> 01:29:59,524
he was not like
Timothy McVeigh at all.
1830
01:29:59,524 --> 01:30:01,609
He didn't make eye contact
with anyone.
1831
01:30:01,609 --> 01:30:03,862
He was always looking down.
1832
01:30:04,988 --> 01:30:06,865
When the judge had a recess,
1833
01:30:06,865 --> 01:30:09,659
I saw this little lady
standing out in the hall.
1834
01:30:10,535 --> 01:30:13,038
I realized it was
Terry Nichols' mother.
1835
01:30:13,038 --> 01:30:15,915
I walked up to her.
I said, "I'm Kathy Wilburn."
1836
01:30:15,915 --> 01:30:18,877
She begins to cry and said,
"I know who you are.
1837
01:30:19,544 --> 01:30:21,838
I've seen you on TV."
1838
01:30:21,838 --> 01:30:23,590
And I put my arms around her,
and I said,
1839
01:30:23,590 --> 01:30:27,302
"Well, I want you to know
how sorry I am for your family."
1840
01:30:27,302 --> 01:30:29,095
And then we went
back in the courtroom
1841
01:30:29,095 --> 01:30:30,889
and I just sat down with her.
1842
01:30:30,889 --> 01:30:33,641
It was like Terry Nichols,
the bomber,
1843
01:30:33,641 --> 01:30:36,561
became my friend Joyce's son.
1844
01:30:38,813 --> 01:30:40,398
The jury thought he was guilty,
1845
01:30:40,398 --> 01:30:42,192
but they didn't know how guilty.
1846
01:30:42,192 --> 01:30:44,277
They had questions
just like I did.
1847
01:30:45,111 --> 01:30:46,780
[reporter] The jury found
Nichols guilty
1848
01:30:46,780 --> 01:30:50,492
of only conspiracy
and involuntary manslaughter.
1849
01:30:50,492 --> 01:30:51,951
Nichols won't get
the death penalty
1850
01:30:51,951 --> 01:30:54,704
for his federal conspiracy
conviction.
1851
01:30:55,205 --> 01:30:57,082
There are other people
out there,
1852
01:30:57,082 --> 01:31:00,460
and decisions
were probably made very early on
1853
01:31:00,460 --> 01:31:02,337
that Tim McVeigh
and Terry Nichols
1854
01:31:02,337 --> 01:31:03,963
were who they were looking for,
1855
01:31:03,963 --> 01:31:07,759
and the same sort of resources
were not used
1856
01:31:07,759 --> 01:31:10,136
to try to find out
who else might be involved.
1857
01:31:11,971 --> 01:31:15,308
[Sanders] A few days
after the trial, I had a letter.
1858
01:31:15,308 --> 01:31:17,977
Return address was
Terry Nichols.
1859
01:31:17,977 --> 01:31:24,192
And I thought, "Mm, you know,
I'm not looking for a pen pal.
1860
01:31:24,192 --> 01:31:27,362
And if I was, it wouldn't be
the Oklahoma City bomber."
1861
01:31:27,362 --> 01:31:30,115
And then it kind of like
dawned on me,
1862
01:31:30,115 --> 01:31:33,326
"Well, who's going to know
more about the bombing
1863
01:31:33,326 --> 01:31:34,953
than the bomber himself?"
1864
01:31:36,413 --> 01:31:38,873
We started writing
back and forth.
1865
01:31:39,916 --> 01:31:41,626
[Coss]
The Terry Nichols relationship,
1866
01:31:41,626 --> 01:31:43,253
I still don't really
understand it.
1867
01:31:43,253 --> 01:31:44,754
I frequently tell my mom,
1868
01:31:44,754 --> 01:31:47,173
and when we do presentations
around the United States,
1869
01:31:47,173 --> 01:31:48,758
that if I ever saw Terry Nichols
1870
01:31:48,758 --> 01:31:50,719
and we were in a room together
for five minutes,
1871
01:31:50,719 --> 01:31:52,303
I'd be the only one
that comes out.
1872
01:31:52,303 --> 01:31:54,431
[birds chirping]
1873
01:31:54,431 --> 01:31:56,808
[Sanders] I have forgiven, yes.
1874
01:31:56,808 --> 01:31:59,894
Do I think people
should be punished? Yes.
1875
01:31:59,894 --> 01:32:03,148
Forgiveness and punishment
are two different things.
1876
01:32:03,148 --> 01:32:07,318
I want everybody involved
in this to be accountable.
1877
01:32:08,236 --> 01:32:11,072
You know, forgiveness
is a choice you make.
1878
01:32:11,531 --> 01:32:13,533
You can forgive...
1879
01:32:14,325 --> 01:32:16,286
or you can stay bitter.
1880
01:32:16,578 --> 01:32:19,581
And forgiving Terry Nichols
1881
01:32:19,581 --> 01:32:21,499
was one of the best choices
I ever made.
1882
01:32:21,499 --> 01:32:23,209
It changed my life.
1883
01:32:25,170 --> 01:32:28,757
Terry Nichols was remorseful,
unlike McVeigh.
1884
01:32:28,757 --> 01:32:32,135
And he told me, "Whenever
I'm not under the threat
1885
01:32:32,135 --> 01:32:36,014
of the death penalty anymore,
I'm gonna tell you everything."
1886
01:32:36,014 --> 01:32:37,766
And he has tried.
1887
01:32:40,101 --> 01:32:43,563
I'd like to read you
part of this letter
1888
01:32:43,563 --> 01:32:46,066
that Terry Nichols sent me.
1889
01:32:47,025 --> 01:32:49,778
"So to put everything
in a nutshell, Kathy,
1890
01:32:49,778 --> 01:32:53,573
Timothy McVeigh was
the manipulated foot soldier,
1891
01:32:53,573 --> 01:32:55,283
Roger Moore the middleman
1892
01:32:55,283 --> 01:32:57,660
who supplied Tim
with encouragement,
1893
01:32:57,660 --> 01:33:00,705
instructions,
and some explosives.
1894
01:33:00,705 --> 01:33:05,710
And the top dog, the director
who orchestrated it all,
1895
01:33:05,710 --> 01:33:09,964
is a rogue FBI agent
with the help of others
1896
01:33:09,964 --> 01:33:12,258
who I will not name
at this time."
1897
01:33:12,258 --> 01:33:14,177
[somber music playing]
1898
01:33:15,136 --> 01:33:15,929
[Sanders] I don't know
1899
01:33:15,929 --> 01:33:17,806
if what he wrote
was true or not,
1900
01:33:17,806 --> 01:33:20,642
but after that letter,
he was notified by the warden
1901
01:33:20,642 --> 01:33:23,645
that I was to be taken off
of his calling list.
1902
01:33:26,064 --> 01:33:27,899
We've been stopped.
1903
01:33:32,862 --> 01:33:34,364
[reporter] Here's how it works.
1904
01:33:34,364 --> 01:33:36,658
Timothy McVeigh lives
in a special confinement unit.
1905
01:33:36,658 --> 01:33:39,411
That is the building there
with the green roof.
1906
01:33:39,411 --> 01:33:44,124
He will be transported by van
to the execution house.
1907
01:33:47,419 --> 01:33:49,212
[Herbeck] He told us that,
1908
01:33:49,212 --> 01:33:51,965
"When the federal government
puts me to death,
1909
01:33:51,965 --> 01:33:53,925
I'm still gonna be the winner,
1910
01:33:53,925 --> 01:33:56,803
because it's 168 for Tim McVeigh
1911
01:33:56,803 --> 01:33:58,930
and one for the government."
1912
01:34:04,769 --> 01:34:07,355
[Michel] You have
these three tubes
1913
01:34:07,355 --> 01:34:09,024
that are coming out of a wall
1914
01:34:09,024 --> 01:34:13,028
with the three chemicals,
poison, to kill him.
1915
01:34:16,031 --> 01:34:18,324
The executioner
was given the order,
1916
01:34:18,324 --> 01:34:21,619
and all of a sudden
these tubes started swaying
1917
01:34:21,619 --> 01:34:23,705
in, like, this ghostly way.
1918
01:34:24,289 --> 01:34:28,209
And meanwhile, McVeigh is
looking straight up at a camera
1919
01:34:28,209 --> 01:34:32,464
that is giving a live feed
to an auditorium
1920
01:34:32,464 --> 01:34:35,800
where other victims,
and family members,
1921
01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:38,678
survivors are watching.
1922
01:34:41,389 --> 01:34:44,851
[Sanders] He glares
this "go to hell" look at us.
1923
01:34:44,851 --> 01:34:46,978
They push the button...
1924
01:34:47,645 --> 01:34:50,857
and he went... [gasps softly]
He was gone.
1925
01:34:54,944 --> 01:34:57,155
[Michel] He died
with his eyes open.
1926
01:35:03,495 --> 01:35:05,997
[Clinton] I wondered
what would've happened if...
1927
01:35:05,997 --> 01:35:09,167
I'd known Timothy McVeigh
when he was a boy.
1928
01:35:09,167 --> 01:35:12,671
I wonder if I would have gone
out of my way to befriend him.
1929
01:35:12,671 --> 01:35:15,465
I wonder if--
You know, you can--
1930
01:35:15,465 --> 01:35:17,008
I wonder about all that.
1931
01:35:17,008 --> 01:35:21,513
McVeigh was a tragic example
of a guy who thought
1932
01:35:21,513 --> 01:35:23,014
our differences
were more important
1933
01:35:23,014 --> 01:35:24,516
than what we have in common.
1934
01:35:24,516 --> 01:35:28,853
Were there objective reasons
that he felt the way he did,
1935
01:35:28,853 --> 01:35:31,356
both personal and psychological?
1936
01:35:31,356 --> 01:35:32,691
Absolutely.
1937
01:35:32,691 --> 01:35:35,026
And political and economic? Yes.
1938
01:35:35,026 --> 01:35:37,195
But we can't blow the house up.
1939
01:35:39,072 --> 01:35:41,324
It doesn't matter
whether he was right
1940
01:35:41,324 --> 01:35:43,368
about anything or not.
1941
01:35:43,368 --> 01:35:44,703
What matters is he decided
1942
01:35:44,703 --> 01:35:46,621
he should kill people
he didn't know,
1943
01:35:46,621 --> 01:35:48,373
including little kids.
1944
01:35:49,082 --> 01:35:52,168
But the words he used,
the arguments he made...
1945
01:35:52,919 --> 01:35:56,423
literally sound like
the mainstream today.
1946
01:35:56,423 --> 01:35:57,882
Like he won.
1947
01:35:58,883 --> 01:36:01,219
[bagpipes playing]
1948
01:36:17,736 --> 01:36:21,489
Tim McVeigh set out
to destroy the government.
1949
01:36:22,073 --> 01:36:23,742
He destroyed my family.
1950
01:36:24,409 --> 01:36:27,829
My brothers passed away
in the Oklahoma City bombing,
1951
01:36:27,829 --> 01:36:29,789
and we go there to remember.
1952
01:36:30,790 --> 01:36:32,417
[man] The risk of terrorism,
1953
01:36:32,417 --> 01:36:34,461
it's always kind of
in the back of your head.
1954
01:36:36,087 --> 01:36:39,549
[Kimble] I think there will be
civil war in our country.
1955
01:36:40,592 --> 01:36:42,093
It's frightening.
1956
01:36:42,886 --> 01:36:45,096
But there are lessons
to be learned
1957
01:36:45,096 --> 01:36:48,058
from what happened here
in Oklahoma City.
1958
01:36:48,641 --> 01:36:52,645
The reason
we come back here every year
1959
01:36:52,645 --> 01:36:54,606
is that this wasn't
a one-off thing.
1960
01:36:54,606 --> 01:36:56,941
It can really happen again.
1961
01:36:58,026 --> 01:37:01,404
Where we're standing now was
the Alfred P. Murrah Building.
1962
01:37:01,905 --> 01:37:06,076
The empty chairs
represent the 168 victims.
1963
01:37:06,451 --> 01:37:09,204
The gate behind me says "9:01,"
1964
01:37:09,204 --> 01:37:13,083
the moment of innocence
before the bombing.
1965
01:37:13,083 --> 01:37:17,253
The gate over your shoulder
says "9:03,"
1966
01:37:17,253 --> 01:37:18,797
the aftermath.
1967
01:37:18,797 --> 01:37:20,215
Today.
1968
01:37:21,591 --> 01:37:26,513
This year we're living in
is not much different from 1995.
1969
01:37:27,097 --> 01:37:29,557
People yelling at each other,
1970
01:37:29,557 --> 01:37:33,520
not making arguments
based on fact, but emotion.
1971
01:37:34,646 --> 01:37:36,439
Many folks feel left behind.
1972
01:37:36,439 --> 01:37:39,067
Like their American dream
has been stolen.
1973
01:37:39,067 --> 01:37:43,905
[all chanting] No sale! No sale!
No sale! No sale! No sale!
1974
01:37:43,905 --> 01:37:45,198
No sale! No sale!
1975
01:37:45,198 --> 01:37:48,118
[Boettcher] That rage
doesn't disappear.
1976
01:37:48,910 --> 01:37:50,912
It can explode on the fringes,
1977
01:37:50,912 --> 01:37:54,958
as we've seen too many times
since April 19th, 1995.
1978
01:37:54,958 --> 01:37:56,960
[indistinct yelling]
1979
01:37:58,169 --> 01:38:00,005
[Boettcher]
The Oklahoma City bombing
1980
01:38:00,005 --> 01:38:01,756
was a crossroads.
1981
01:38:02,173 --> 01:38:05,677
It was a huge signpost
in history.
1982
01:38:05,677 --> 01:38:08,013
"America, wake up."
1983
01:38:08,013 --> 01:38:11,349
But I think
that sign got blown down.
1984
01:38:11,349 --> 01:38:12,934
[reporter 1]
... a mass shooting.
1985
01:38:12,934 --> 01:38:15,061
[reporter 2]
...180-page manifesto.
1986
01:38:15,061 --> 01:38:17,355
[reporter 3] He didn't come
to worship. He came to kill.
1987
01:38:17,355 --> 01:38:19,691
[reporter 4] Tree of Life
has never been the same.
1988
01:38:19,691 --> 01:38:22,819
[Noble] Every time I hear
a news report on mass shootings,
1989
01:38:22,819 --> 01:38:26,656
and domestic terrorism,
right-wing extremism,
1990
01:38:26,656 --> 01:38:30,243
it always reminds me
of when I was in the movement,
1991
01:38:30,243 --> 01:38:33,121
how dangerously close
we as a group got,
1992
01:38:33,121 --> 01:38:35,707
how dangerously close I got
1993
01:38:35,707 --> 01:38:38,376
to committing
domestic terrorism.
1994
01:38:40,545 --> 01:38:44,507
So much has changed
from our days back in the '80s.
1995
01:38:44,966 --> 01:38:48,970
How mainstream extremism
has become,
1996
01:38:49,637 --> 01:38:51,556
that was something we hoped for.
1997
01:38:51,973 --> 01:38:55,268
I'm seeing that now,
and honestly, it scares me.
1998
01:38:56,394 --> 01:38:58,229
The closest thing
that has happened
1999
01:38:58,229 --> 01:38:59,981
since Oklahoma City, of course,
2000
01:38:59,981 --> 01:39:03,568
is the January 6th riot
on the Capitol Building.
2001
01:39:03,568 --> 01:39:05,403
[indistinct yelling]
2002
01:39:08,031 --> 01:39:09,199
[Coss] On January 6th,
2003
01:39:09,199 --> 01:39:12,035
I was the emergency planning
specialist
2004
01:39:12,035 --> 01:39:13,161
with the incident commander
2005
01:39:13,161 --> 01:39:14,454
and everybody else
who showed up.
2006
01:39:14,454 --> 01:39:16,539
So I was at that scene
for about 18 hours.
2007
01:39:16,539 --> 01:39:17,916
[all yelling]
2008
01:39:17,916 --> 01:39:20,168
[Sanders] When I saw
the storming of the Capitol
2009
01:39:20,168 --> 01:39:24,297
on January 6th, I'm thinking,
"What's the chances
2010
01:39:24,297 --> 01:39:26,466
that my boy's gonna be
down at the bombing
2011
01:39:26,466 --> 01:39:28,927
and gonna be involved
in this as well?"
2012
01:39:28,927 --> 01:39:31,888
And I was concerned
for his safety.
2013
01:39:31,888 --> 01:39:34,099
[all yelling]
2014
01:39:34,099 --> 01:39:36,768
[Coss] There's no call for
what they did on January 6th.
2015
01:39:36,768 --> 01:39:38,395
What they did was wrong,
2016
01:39:38,395 --> 01:39:40,271
and they should be prosecuted
for it.
2017
01:39:42,065 --> 01:39:44,109
Every single day,
we have protests.
2018
01:39:45,068 --> 01:39:47,737
The majority of the people
up there are peaceful.
2019
01:39:48,863 --> 01:39:51,950
But as long as our country
continues to divide itself,
2020
01:39:51,950 --> 01:39:54,119
I believe there's more to come.
2021
01:39:54,786 --> 01:39:58,456
You poke a dog long enough,
the dog's going to bite.
2022
01:39:58,456 --> 01:40:01,459
If you're going to push people
to the extremes,
2023
01:40:02,127 --> 01:40:04,129
violence is inevitable.
2024
01:40:13,346 --> 01:40:16,224
[Sanders] I drove up to
this building a hundred times.
2025
01:40:16,224 --> 01:40:21,730
We used to go on our break
up there over that wall.
2026
01:40:21,730 --> 01:40:23,773
- Mm-hmm.
- We would stay...
2027
01:40:23,773 --> 01:40:25,316
We'd take treats and stuff
2028
01:40:25,316 --> 01:40:27,736
and go up there and watch
the kids play in the playground.
2029
01:40:27,736 --> 01:40:29,154
[Coss chuckles]
2030
01:40:29,154 --> 01:40:31,072
That's where I found Colton.
You know that, right?
2031
01:40:31,072 --> 01:40:32,741
- Yeah.
- Right there.
2032
01:40:32,741 --> 01:40:34,743
[somber music playing]
2033
01:40:37,412 --> 01:40:39,873
[Sanders] When I delved
into the bombing
2034
01:40:39,873 --> 01:40:41,833
and started having questions,
2035
01:40:41,833 --> 01:40:43,543
I told a reporter, I said,
2036
01:40:43,543 --> 01:40:47,464
"You know, it's not going to be
too many years
2037
01:40:47,464 --> 01:40:49,924
that when I tell someone
I lost my grandchildren
2038
01:40:49,924 --> 01:40:51,926
in the bombing,
they'll say, 'Which one?'"
2039
01:40:51,926 --> 01:40:54,387
- Exactly.
- And that's where we are today.
2040
01:40:59,517 --> 01:41:02,562
It's still hard to believe
it's been 28 years.
2041
01:41:03,855 --> 01:41:05,315
Yeah.
2042
01:41:06,316 --> 01:41:08,443
Love you guys.
We'll see you next year.
2043
01:41:08,443 --> 01:41:09,736
You ready?
2044
01:41:10,612 --> 01:41:12,572
Yeah. Bye, guys.
2045
01:41:45,021 --> 01:41:47,315
[somber music playing]